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Author Topic: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal  (Read 384885 times)

ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2011, 11:42:25 pm »
Well I mean that Java is using an object model approach much akin to ObjectPascal. Not saying it is 'exactly the same' object model. More in a generic sense.
So you still could argue that Java is to Lazarus like VB is to Delphi, no?

Mmmm....

That implies that Lazarus > Java because Delphi > VB and I think the former is backwards:

Java > Lazarus

Because:

Technology:
1. Java haves more clear object model. Thats because OP is Pascal with OO, Java was designed as only as OOP so doesn't inherited non OOP as Pascal did.
2. Java is "compile once run anywhere", OP is "write once then compile and run anywhere".
3. Java haves far more mature libraries.
4. Java IDEs are far more advanced than Lazarus even Delphi and, again, runs anywhere.
5. Java is not only a programming language, is a runtime environment. Have you heard about JSR-223? JSR-223 (Scripting for the Java Platform) allow you to write your own programming language and run inside Java's VM. There is a lot of JSR-223 implementations such Groovy, Rhino (JavaScript), Scala, JRuby, etc. As matter of fact, in early 2000s Sun was working on VB clone which runs inside JVM but never released such work.

Businness perspective:
1. Platform agnostic.
2. Is far more easily to find a Java developer than OP developer.

Regards.

ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2011, 11:49:28 pm »
@mvampire

Teorically, you can use CI servers to build any application in any programming language if it has a command line tools (compiler, resource generator, etc.)

So you can use CI for Lazarus/FPC projects because it has a command line compiler which can be invoked via make, shell script or ANT task.

I'm not familiar with maven so I dont know if can be used with Lazarus/FPC.

I dont know if lazarus haves suppor for CVS and/or SVN but if lacks it, you can use Tortoise CVS or SVN in Windows or cvs/snv from command line in linux.

Regards.

CaptBill

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2011, 12:09:20 am »
my main point is that Lazarus can as well as should be more utilized in certain tasks. It is certainly not just a hobby/educational tool. It certainly excels in these departments, no doubt, but it could easily manage anything you may need.

We also should not be directly comparing one language against another because they all have thier up/downsides. None are going to be the 'be all end all' solution. Software should target certain needs to a degree. It shouldn't be a showdown where one knocks out the other.

My main point is that Lazarus is definitely a prime time player that can hold it's own with the best of them....and I personally feel IS the best all around at it's core. It only needs to catch up in the 'bells and whistles' department. That should come once it get's fully discovered and it establishes a spot in the marketplace.

It, seems to me, is the Mazzarrati of programming languages. You just don't see it in the office because a Chevy Astrovan is frankly, a bit more practical if you are just going to the supermarket to get groceries.... probably not a fair analogy because Lazarus can do simple things well too, actually. It is more the politics probably than anything.

What I am most concerned about is making sure I am not learning a language that won't survive because it is not 'up to snuff'. Lazarus is definitly up to snuff. I feel real good with my decision. I really like it. Same with you and Java. You obviously like your Java and I can understand that. it is what you know and is an excellent choice for you and what you do. Abandoning Java for Lazarus may be a bad decision for yourself with all the time invested.

I just don't want to be stuck saying 'man, i should have learned Java'. I knew up front that finding a job as a Delphi programmer is harder than a Java developer. I would like to see more opportunities open up though for Delphi/Lazarus. Politics drives that.

JD

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2011, 12:34:30 am »
True but one could argue that Java is merely a cross compiler implementation of ObjectPascal in a sense....aka LAZARUS
...minus a compiler!

Another misinformed statement:
Java's syntax is derived from C++ and VM's from Smalltalk.
On the other hand, Java's SDK is far more complete than FPC and/or Lazarus out-of-the-box.

Regards.

Java's SDK & its libraries are probably the most comprehensive in the world today. I was amazed at the breath of the Java SDK. It seems everything is already available there.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:37:23 am by JD »
Windows (10, 7) - Lazarus 2.0RC3/FPC 3.2, NewPascal, Delphi

Indy 10.6 series; mORMot; Zeos 7.2.1; SQLite, Firebird, PostgreSQL & MariaDB; VirtualTreeView 5.5.3 R1

ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2011, 03:08:57 am »
@CaptBill

At the end of the day is your preference and choice. I have some friends that leave Java and go to dynamic  languages such PHP, Perl and so. I always hated dynamic languages but now I have no option but use JavaScript (with Sencha's ExtJS) to get the results I need/want.

Where I think your are wrong is when you says "political". What drives almost all decisions is money.

Why you think Java is so widely used?
Is because Sun invested tons of money on it!

Why you think Linux is so popular in server area?
Is because IBM invesyed tons on money on it!
So Mark Shuttleworth in Ubuntu so is gaining market share in the desktop, notebooks and netbooks.

Why you think .NET crap is so popular?
Because MS invest tons of money on it!
(Apart, of course, that their tools are very easy to use which is definetely because the money the invested on it)

Lazarus and FPC are fine products but nobody is investing money on them so I really doubt that will "catch up".

Bottom line, if you can get a decent income with Lazarus/FPC with some product niche or stablisehd customers you really don't need Java or any other tech.
But when your company grow you will need developers so then you will say "I should did this in ____" (fill the blank with whatever language you think you should).

Regards.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 03:10:45 am by ssamayoa »

JD

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2011, 04:20:56 am »
At the end of the day is your preference and choice. I have some friends that leave Java and go to dynamic  languages such PHP, Perl and so. I always hated dynamic languages but now I have no option but use JavaScript (with Sencha's ExtJS) to get the results I need/want.

I know what you mean. I'm no fan of dynamic languages too but a week ago I had to start to learn Python in order to solve a problem I had :(. Sometimes one has no choice.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 04:36:21 am by JD »
Windows (10, 7) - Lazarus 2.0RC3/FPC 3.2, NewPascal, Delphi

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Leledumbo

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2011, 04:27:10 am »
Quote
Where I think your are wrong is when you says "political". What drives almost all decisions is money.
Not really, I think he's right. Money is just a means to achieve this political goal. However, I really agree with this one. Money makes everything possible: good promotion, good marketing, commercial cooperation, etc. Doesn't really matter if the product is good or not, money would always make it look good.

Actually, to stay alive, a development platform doesn't really need commercial support. As long as it has user base, it's alive. Look at Haskell, it has only educational support, no company (AFAIK) use it commercially (unlike it's impure cousin, Erlang, which is used and supported by Ericsson). But it's alive, it has huge solid userbase, a lot of libraries, used extensively in many research projects, etc. Same case with Lazarus/FPC, even better. There are still commercial usage of Lazarus/FPC, though not much, and the language is still used worldwide.

However, it's a good idea to have some company supports Lazarus/FPC, just like GCC does. Perhaps a real serious plan must be made for this, and targets companies which already use Lazarus/FPC.

touchring

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2011, 04:29:24 am »
Why you think .NET crap is so popular?
Because MS invest tons of money on it!
(Apart, of course, that their tools are very easy to use which is definetely because the money the invested on it)


I've no academic programming background, recently, I had to amend code from my programmer for dot net c sharp and vb.net apps, I don't find VS 2010 easy to use at all, and it compiles and runs too slowly - bloatware?  I also use NetBeans IDE, it is a little better than VS, but still not as good and easy to use as Delphi.

Lazarus is much easier to use, the main problem is there is no automated upgrader and packages cannot be "uninstalled".  I create snapshots of my Debian without Lazarus, so if I need to upgrade, I just install from scratch.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 05:04:49 am by touchring »

Leledumbo

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2011, 04:48:11 am »
Quote
I don't find VS 2010 easy to use at all, and it compiles and runs too slowly - bloatware?
Yeah, no ctrl+click to jump to declaration, no code templates, no many automatic features (besides intellisense). It's slow but that's how MS makes their development platform (.NET) popular: by using it in their own products.
Quote
packages cannot be "uninstalled"
meaning?

ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2011, 05:16:57 am »
For a geek VS looks like a crap.

But it is really easy to get up and running.

It is simple: Put two noob guys, one with VS and another with Lazarus, ask them to make a "contacts application" and back an hour after.

Guess who of them haves a working application?

We must admit that even if everybody (specially OSS advocates) hates MS they spend a ton of money on usability and "work done". If they didn't (MS people), why everybody copy their UI and other stuff?

So, lets back to our subject:
Unless someone invest in FPC/Lazarus, but I mean really invest big money, FPC/Lazarus will stay in the shadows and not been noticed for other people than us, the OP geeks.

Regards.

touchring

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2011, 06:59:40 am »
For a geek VS looks like a crap.

But it is really easy to get up and running.

It is simple: Put two noob guys, one with VS and another with Lazarus, ask them to make a "contacts application" and back an hour after.


You're probably talking about VB, C# looks all cryptic to me.


packages cannot be "uninstalled"
meaning?

Ok, I correct this, I saw there's now an uninstall package feature in the latest 0.9.31 installer version.   :D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 08:10:31 am by touchring »

CaptBill

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2011, 08:21:17 am »

It is simple: Put two noob guys, one with VS and another with Lazarus, ask them to make a "contacts application" and back an hour after.

Guess who of them haves a working application?

We must admit that even if everybody (specially OSS advocates) hates MS they spend a ton of money on usability and "work done". If they didn't (MS people), why everybody copy their UI and other stuff?

So, lets back to our subject:
Unless someone invest in FPC/Lazarus, but I mean really invest big money, FPC/Lazarus will stay in the shadows and not been noticed for other people than us, the OP geeks.

Regards.

Yes but which is the better end product? Which one is more software engineering vs. software 'programming'? Which one is faster/lighter? Which one is just all around more a professional end-product?...Lazarus wins here.

Granted, in the corporate environment time=money and Lazaraus can't match (yet) the appeal of Java to the bean-counters. Lazarus is the best choice for the independent contractor or a niche software product (like CAD software plug-ins). For this type of app you want fast/lightweight executables with a high degree of professional feel. You want software that is high-end and polished yet sleek and fast. Nobody cares or even knows what it is developed in. Lazarus is more geared to 'software engineering' where time is less a concern than a well built or engineered app. Java is geared for fast paced production work.

So you make my point that each one has it's strengths and weaknesses. But I argue that Lazarus's weakness is just it's still brand new. In time, once the code libraries grow/mature, it will be the ULTIMATE language.

...and pay close attention the the indicators, read the tea leaves, and you will see it is true, Lazarus has the competition sweating. There is a bit of Lazarus envy abounding. That is why it gets disqualified from competing in code competitions.....that, my friends, speaks volumes.

Leledumbo

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2011, 10:49:54 am »
Yeah, enterprise programming moves from fast execution to fast development. You can actually develop things in Lazarus as fast as in Java, Rails, etc. The problem with this is the lack of Object Pascal programmers. We have no certification or anything else that would interest professionals in learning it (PHP at least is backed up by w3schools).

Any way, there are fields where Java can't beat Object Pascal: native application extension. I mean something like a photoshop plugin (I forgot its name, it's in the wiki though).

CaptBill

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2011, 11:51:29 am »
Yeah, enterprise programming moves from fast execution to fast development. You can actually develop things in Lazarus as fast as in Java, Rails, etc. The problem with this is the lack of Object Pascal programmers. We have no certification or anything else that would interest professionals in learning it (PHP at least is backed up by w3schools).

Any way, there are fields where Java can't beat Object Pascal: native application extension. I mean something like a photoshop plugin (I forgot its name, it's in the wiki though).

You know, I bet that another approach could be best. Even big companies that use Java extensively run into jobs more suited to a more native solution on occasion. May its best to sell the concept that it's worthwhile to have an OP guy around in the mix for these needs. We just need to sell it up and approach them individually. They just aren't aware of what they are missing out on in certain situations. It is the C level apps that Laz/Delphi is best suited for. So even comparing Java and OP is comparing apples and oranges. It's C__ we should be comparing and I highly doubt native compiler languages are going away any time soon. And OP is the cream of that crop AND is much simpler than C and kind of Java-ish at the same time.

eny

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2011, 12:47:55 pm »
1. Java haves more clear object model. Thats because OP is Pascal with OO, Java was designed as only as OOP so doesn't inherited non OOP as Pascal did.
Nonsense ('int'... need I say more??).
It's perfectly possible to create procedural crap with Java.

Quote
2. Java is "compile once run anywhere"
Again, nonsense. Java is compile once and run only when there is a VM available.

Quote
Java IDE
There is no such thing.

Quote
Java is not only a programming language, is a runtime environment
Java programs don't run without a runtime environment on top of the OS.
Lazarus programs do.
All posts based on: Win10 (Win64); Lazarus 1.8.0 'stable' (#56594 win64) unless specified otherwise...