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Author Topic: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal  (Read 384839 times)

touchring

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2011, 06:51:46 pm »
This is why I believe ObjectPascal still has a role to play when developing single-user to mid-market applications. In my opinion, a single executable is much easier to deploy & update than a group of mutually dependent files.


Nowadays many of my clients don't even want to install any executable.  They want it web based or in an appliance gadget or just a VM image they can slot into their VMWARE CLOUD.

This is where the corporate market is moving towards.

Leledumbo

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 07:29:17 pm »
A language would only die if its programmers let it die :)

I personally work in a C/Java minded company, and as far as possible I write tools in Pascal. My team leader asked me to port it to C++/C#/VB. I try to convince him that any attempt to port this tool to another development platform would only downgrade its quality (no cross platform, VM dependant, slow execution, memory hog). Until now, my tools stay in Pascal.

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So I see that it's not very popular and want to ask how you see the future of FPC+Lazarus? Which role should it play? Language for serious business projects? Language for researchers and students? Or just a language to support old Delphi projects? Anything else?
For me, it should stay as it is now: a general development environment and programming language for any programming needs that require optimized native execution and memory usage.
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- Continuous integration systems (Jenkins, Hudson)
What is this?
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- SVN/CVS integration (Team SVN provider)
lazsvnpkg?
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- dependency management (Maven)
Object Pascal has no need for this, the compiler is smart enough to compile everything.
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- Javadoc and help system
fpdoc? pasdoc? chmhelp?
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- a lot of libraries, e.g. for Web (e.g., SOAP, for Lazarus I know about wsdl toolkit 0.5, but it never worked for me)
Open your fpc/source/packages directory
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- Web application servers (e.g., Tomcat)
Easy to create, even it's just one of example in lnet. Besides, Object Pascal code doesn't need special web server to work, it doesn't even need one! You can have the web server integrated in the web application!
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so of course Java+Eclipse is a very popular solution and it's very complicated for FPC+Lazarus to compete with them
From my research, it's not those things. But the way Oracle promotes their language and tools.
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Many corporations invest money in Java, Lazarus does not have such a financial sources
That's why I like Lazarus/FPC, we're driven by no company but the community :)
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Then I try and remember that Pascal from the beginning was a language for learning/researching. So it should be nice for students.
No, it's nice for everyone who wants to know it. Trust me, many programmers just really don't know this language, they're only fed by black campaign from their professors, bosses, friends, etc. who in turn don't know the reality as well.
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There is only Java and C++ available now:(
Well... if you know who's behind this? Again, Oracle and probably MS / AT&T. Embarcadero seems has no interest in joining.
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Thus, students also has no more motivation to learn Pascal - business needs Java/C, contests do not accept Pascal.
Many online judges do, IOI accepts Pascal/C/C++ only.
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How do You see the future of the project and target audience?
Bright enough, looking at the increasing number of people joining the forum, number of downloads at many download sites, etc. I've started googling things written in Lazarus/FPC since 2005, and the result grows every year.
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Who will use Lazarus/ are using it now?
Me for sure, some european companies (maybe more), brazilian government (CMIIW) and schools all over the world.
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For which developers it fits better than other languages?
Real developers, I mean those who learn programming languages and tools by heart. Those who can differentiate between compiler, debugger, editor and IDE. Those who can compare language with language, implementation with implementation, instead of intermixing them. Those who analyze programming languages up to their semantics instead of just syntax.
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Should Lazarus choose a target "audience" (business developers, students, researchers, web, databases, etc.) and plan roadmap to fit their needs? Or just continue as is?
As I said before, just continue as is. Lazarus should have no restriction of users. I've made both open source and proprietary projects with it.

JD

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2011, 08:44:25 pm »
I personally work in a C/Java minded company, and as far as possible I write tools in Pascal. My team leader asked me to port it to C++/C#/VB. I try to convince him that any attempt to port this tool to another development platform would only downgrade its quality (no cross platform, VM dependant, slow execution, memory hog). Until now, my tools stay in Pascal.

You're a lucky bloke. Not many people are able to stay dedicated to Pascal in the work environment.  :)
Windows (10, 7) - Lazarus 2.0RC3/FPC 3.2, NewPascal, Delphi

Indy 10.6 series; mORMot; Zeos 7.2.1; SQLite, Firebird, PostgreSQL & MariaDB; VirtualTreeView 5.5.3 R1

CaptBill

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2011, 08:55:11 pm »
I think the problem started when M$ took from Borland the fellow that wrote Turbo Pascal and Delphi (Anders Hejlsberg, a European engineer)..There, at M$, he was given a big job, resources, etc, and he wrote or guided, or was chief architect for Mono, and also CSharp.

So Pascal is indeed the daddy of much of the modern computing languages, and thereby Delphi too, seems to me.

Even Apple, I gather has much of its internal code in Pascal.

I think Pascal is something like the Wankel Engine vs the piston-crankshaft motors. The big car makers no way want to change the paradigm. Heck, if they can find a way to make the electric car have pistons, they'll go that way.


So C# is essentially M$'s version of Delphi, whereas .Net is probably better described as 'a way to make Delphi (and all other competitors) to work in a fashion where W$ is driving the ship, just as if Delphi were'.

Fascinating stuff. Makes me feel good about my choice of development tool, that's for sure.





garlar27

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2011, 09:15:05 pm »
   As I've herd a long time ago (maybe more than 10 years ago), when he switched from Borland to MS that he was happy because he could implement many ideas to the new product, things he wanted to implement in Delphi but Borland people didn't want to do because they where fine the way they where back then. (sorry, I don't know the source of that interview :-[).


You're a lucky bloke. Not many people are able to stay dedicated to Pascal in the work environment.  :)

  And by the way... I use Lazarus/FPC every day in my job. I'm paid to program with FPC/Lazarus.  :D

CaptBill

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2011, 09:32:13 pm »
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  And by the way... I use Lazarus/FPC every day in my job. I'm paid to program with FPC/Lazarus.  :D

Well just rub it in then, why don't you!

 :D

ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2011, 10:02:48 pm »
Because .Net is simply MICROSOFT'S VERSION OF DELPHI....that is all .Net is.

Far away from truth: .NET is JAVA "a la MS", not MS' version of Delphi.

What is truth is that MS hired Borland's top architect to give live to .NET: Anders Hejlsberg.

Regards.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 10:06:39 pm by ssamayoa »

ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2011, 10:10:02 pm »
Nowadays many of my clients don't even want to install any executable.  They want it web based or in an appliance gadget or just a VM image they can slot into their VMWARE CLOUD.

Yep, thats why I moved from fat client (Delphi, VB, WinForms) to thin/web client several years ago.

Even if I enjoyed ObjectPascal codding since early 90's, now I work as JEE Architect and see no reason to back to ObjectPascal other than hobby work.

Regards.

CaptBill

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2011, 10:16:02 pm »
Because .Net is simply MICROSOFT'S VERSION OF DELPHI....that is all .Net is.

Far away from truth: .NET is JAVA "a la MS", not MS' version of Delphi.

What is truth is that MS hired Borland's top architect to give live to .NET: Anders Hejlsberg.

Regards.

True but one could argue that Java is merely a cross compiler implementation of ObjectPascal in a sense....aka LAZARUS

...minus a compiler!

ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2011, 10:21:18 pm »
Sadly, as another non commercial funded projects, Lazarus will fade in the next 5 to 10 years.

There is a lot of supporters and entusiatics but eventually they will left for any reason, from getting better paid using some other thechnology, get into management, change is career or (it happens) die.

On the other hand, fat clients are less common this days and lazarus is not exactly a good thin client tool. I saw brave initiatives (cgi, extpascal, etc.) but very infant compared to stablished web/thin client technologies: php, jsf, Flex, asp/net, Sencha' s extjs, etc.

Regards.

CaptBill

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2011, 10:30:07 pm »
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Even if I enjoyed ObjectPascal codding since early 90's, now I work as JEE Architect and see no reason to back to ObjectPascal other than hobby work.

I see your point (gotta go with the flow in the workplace). And for day to day programming this make sense. But if you are an independent developer doing stand alone apps of any complexity then Lazarus is the way to go...not merely hobby stuff.

Lazarus would be a good choice for internal corporate programming if you wanted a more robust and higher performance system all in all. Java is prominent simply because 90% of day to day development is rether simple, mundane tasks. No reason you could not have a lightweight scripting version of Lazarus for day to day programming and have 'whole enchilada' right there if you need it.

Best of both worlds.

ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2011, 10:31:21 pm »
True but one could argue that Java is merely a cross compiler implementation of ObjectPascal in a sense....aka LAZARUS
...minus a compiler!

Another misinformed statement:
Java's syntax is derived from C++ and VM's from Smalltalk.
On the other hand, Java's SDK is far more complete than FPC and/or Lazarus out-of-the-box.

Regards.

CaptBill

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2011, 10:41:36 pm »
True but one could argue that Java is merely a cross compiler implementation of ObjectPascal in a sense....aka LAZARUS
...minus a compiler!

Another misinformed statement:
Java's syntax is derived from C++ and VM's from Smalltalk.
On the other hand, Java's SDK is far more complete than FPC and/or Lazarus out-of-the-box.

Regards.

Well I mean that Java is using an object model approach much akin to ObjectPascal. Not saying it is 'exactly the same' object model. More in a generic sense.

So you still could argue that Java is to Lazarus like VB is to Delphi, no?


ssamayoa

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2011, 11:14:58 pm »
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But if you are an independent developer doing stand alone apps of any complexity then Lazarus is the way to go...not merely hobby stuff.

Apart from my "corporate job" I develop applications as independent developer and I do that stuff in Java. As matter of fact I'm working since couple of months in a payroll application which I intend to lease as service hosted on my own server(s). This application is written in Sencha's ExtJS with JAX-RS (Restfull Web Services) and JPA (Java Persistence API), runs on any browser. I did a litle demo to one friend of mine and he said that looks like Delphi application.

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Lazarus would be a good choice for internal corporate programming if you wanted a more robust and higher performance system all in all.

Mmmm....
There two affirmations in one sentence, lets see:
"more robust": What you mean? Will you enlighten me please...
"higher performance":
Well, such argumenr was one I used few years ago while comparing interpreted/byte code based applications (such VB even Java) against Delphi. At that time "native" matters a lot because hardware were underpower.
Now such argument has lost relevance because hardware is far more powerfull and the advance of JIT (Just in time compiler) of Java and other interpreted (PHP, JavaScript) or byte code based languages (.NET).

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Java is prominent simply because 90% of day to day development is rether simple, mundane tasks.
No reason you could not have a lightweight scripting version of Lazarus for day to day programming and have 'whole enchilada' right there if you need it.

Mmmm...
When I started to use Java I use a lot OP for small utility applications because I couldn't found the components/libraries I need to write them in Java.
Now this has been reverted: I found more mature and robust ( :) ) libraries in Java than OP.

Botom line:
I wish FPC/Lazarus have a long live but this wish is from "nostalgia" point of view (OP bring food to my table for about 10 years in the past) and no more for been a superior technology and/or more productive tool.
Same as COBOL (I also do hobby work in it) because was the first business language I ever learn and bring food to my table for 3-4 year in late 80s and, sorprise!, give me extra bucks recently.

Regards.

mvampire

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Re: Future of Lazarus / FreePascal
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2011, 11:17:00 pm »

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- Continuous integration systems (Jenkins, Hudson)
What is this?
...
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- dependency management (Maven)
Object Pascal has no need for this, the compiler is smart enough to compile everything.


1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_integration
e.g., to make nightly builds

2) Dependency management.
It's not about compiler. E.g., when there are many people in department and your project uses 3 other projects, each of this projects uses 5 other. And all of them are maintained by different people, it becomes very complicated to put all them together and handle updates from every team member.
When you have a dependency management system you just provide links to projects needed as a dependencies, and all staff will be added automatically (latest version, of preferred version, if needed). If somebody uploads a new snapshot to repository, your program will use it without any problem.
Also in Eclipse you can access methods and javadoc of related projects without adding them to workspace, all is needed - add a name/id of project to dependency list.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 11:19:21 pm by mvampire »