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Author Topic: When GTK3 in Lazarus?  (Read 10423 times)

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2020, 02:39:47 am »
Please note that the only Desktop that uses it, is actually KDE, not very famous in Linux FOSS Communities, in fact they do not want to depend on any Qt.
Plus of course Ubuntu Kylin which by all reports has quite a lot of users. And Deepin, LXQt .....

So, I believe that GTK3 must change it's stage from Alpha.
Yes, of course. The trouble I found with GTK3 is is keeps changing. One of the GTK3 things I tried to chase down had been implemented nicely in LCL-GTK3 but soon after implementation the api used was declared deprecated.  By time I came to use it, it had been withdrawn. So, I spent some weeks finding a workaround, only to watch as the API I decided to use was also declared deprecated.

If you have a big team of developers, perhaps all wearing red hats, who work in a office next door to the Gnome developers, maybe you can keep up. But they do not make it easy !

Davo

Ubuntu Kylin, Deepin and LxQt may be have a lot of users, but not the most. Yes I got your point, but I do not agree.

What about MATE or Gnome or Cinnamon or XFCE users? Do they exist and are a big part of many other distributions, or not? XUbuntu,Ubuntu Mate e.t.c. do not exist too?

Of course we know what it means to have a big team of Developers, because we do not also have it available, on Artix Linux.

Plus, the case here is not an arena for fighting, but to improve, what can be improved, further.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 03:37:59 pm by linuxer »

dbannon

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2020, 10:07:56 am »
Plus, the case here is not an arena for fighting, but to improve, what can be improved, further.

Hey, Linuxer, if I sounded a bit harsh, its certainly not intended.  I seriously apologize. But I agree with you is almost every thing you have said. Lazarus must have GTK3 to be a credible Linux product, absolutely no doubt about that.  And more and more distributions are leaving out all the GTK2 libraries.  My claim that my app has little or no dependencies is sounding quite hollow when people need download my app at 5Meg or so and 200Meg of GTK2.  And we are finding that the GTK2 libraries available with new distros have problems, problems "no one" cares about.

But what I, and the other people who responded needed to make clear is is hard !  Before we (collectively) can solve a problem, we need to understand it. And discuss it. Its a good thing you started this thread !

Davo
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PascalDragon

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2020, 10:24:01 am »
So, I believe that GTK3 must change it's stage from Alpha.
Yes, of course. The trouble I found with GTK3 is is keeps changing. One of the GTK3 things I tried to chase down had been implemented nicely in LCL-GTK3 but soon after implementation the api used was declared deprecated.  By time I came to use it, it had been withdrawn. So, I spent some weeks finding a workaround, only to watch as the API I decided to use was also declared deprecated.

Considering that development of GTK is now moved to version 4 I think we can consider GTK3 as stable (with GIMP also moving to it only now) and thus we should be able to keep up now. :)

dbannon

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2020, 01:00:11 pm »
So, PD, what you are saying is GTK3 is out of beta ?  Thats nice .....

Davo
Lazarus 2, Linux (and reluctantly Win10, OSX)
My Project - https://github.com/tomboy-notes/tomboy-ng

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2020, 02:53:12 pm »
Plus, the case here is not an arena for fighting, but to improve, what can be improved, further.

Hey, Linuxer, if I sounded a bit harsh, its certainly not intended.  I seriously apologize. But I agree with you is almost every thing you have said. Lazarus must have GTK3 to be a credible Linux product, absolutely no doubt about that.  And more and more distributions are leaving out all the GTK2 libraries.  My claim that my app has little or no dependencies is sounding quite hollow when people need download my app at 5Meg or so and 200Meg of GTK2.  And we are finding that the GTK2 libraries available with new distros have problems, problems "no one" cares about.

But what I, and the other people who responded needed to make clear is is hard !  Before we (collectively) can solve a problem, we need to understand it. And discuss it. Its a good thing you started this thread !

Davo

Thank you very much, for your provided answer to me, honestly.  :)

Also thanking you, for the better understanding of my suggested points, as I have pretty understood yours.

I did not mean to insult anyone, because more or less we are all developers, no matter what subject it may concerns, but to warn instead.

Just for adding more value at your points, unfortunately a lot of people are attacking us, because they consider that we are their servants (in it's bad meaning of the word).

And, of course, we are not.

Regards.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 03:35:36 pm by linuxer »

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2020, 02:58:03 pm »
So, I believe that GTK3 must change it's stage from Alpha.
Yes, of course. The trouble I found with GTK3 is is keeps changing. One of the GTK3 things I tried to chase down had been implemented nicely in LCL-GTK3 but soon after implementation the api used was declared deprecated.  By time I came to use it, it had been withdrawn. So, I spent some weeks finding a workaround, only to watch as the API I decided to use was also declared deprecated.

Considering that development of GTK is now moved to version 4 I think we can consider GTK3 as stable (with GIMP also moving to it only now) and thus we should be able to keep up now. :)

Yeap! :)

It is the time, because they will start to "play and change" more with GTK4 code.

For GTK3, there may be (if needed) minor changes.

Regards
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 10:27:22 pm by linuxer »

munair

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2020, 08:01:20 am »
LCL with GTK2 still works fine on the XFCE desktop, even though XFCE is working on full GTK3 support.

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2020, 10:23:49 am »
LCL with GTK2 still works fine on the XFCE desktop, even though XFCE is working on full GTK3 support.

Yes, it is working but GTK2 libs are outdated, because they are without maintenance.
Anyway, It is better to move, as Desktops done, because nobody guaranties that things will not break tomorrow.
When such break happens, their removal will be done too.
Also GTK3 has no backwards compatibility.
Those are the reasons.
If you consider that, my points are not correct, why then XFCE transitioned to GTK3?

Regards



« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 10:45:18 am by linuxer »

af0815

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2020, 02:32:22 pm »
should this page https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Roadmap#General_status_of_LCL_interfaces
updated to reflect the state of gtk3. Or is the state shown somewhere ?
regards
Andreas

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2020, 02:44:55 pm »
should this page https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Roadmap#General_status_of_LCL_interfaces
updated to reflect the state of gtk3. Or is the state shown somewhere ?

According to zejlko's answer on page 2, is still on Alpha Stage.

Awaiting also further news too.


dbannon

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2020, 02:47:44 pm »
LCL with GTK2 still works fine on the XFCE desktop, even though XFCE is working on full GTK3 support.

I think the XFCE situation is they have announced that their next release (or is that current release ?) will not need GTK2.  That means that distributions that use XFCE will be free to leave all the GTK2 libraries out if nothing else in their standard install needs them.  That means pressure on app makers to be, themselves free of GTK2.

The GTK2 libraries can always (well, for some time) be downloaded, its about 200Meg, and it also means that the desktop and distro maintainers are somewhat less interested in making sure their systems actually work with the GTK2 libraries as they should. We have already seen that with Ubuntu, note issues with Gnome version  of U19.10.
Lazarus 2, Linux (and reluctantly Win10, OSX)
My Project - https://github.com/tomboy-notes/tomboy-ng

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2020, 03:00:42 pm »
LCL with GTK2 still works fine on the XFCE desktop, even though XFCE is working on full GTK3 support.

I think the XFCE situation is they have announced that their next release (or is that current release ?) will not need GTK2.  That means that distributions that use XFCE will be free to leave all the GTK2 libraries out if nothing else in their standard install needs them.  That means pressure on app makers to be, themselves free of GTK2.

The GTK2 libraries can always (well, for some time) be downloaded, its about 200Meg, and it also means that the desktop and distro maintainers are somewhat less interested in making sure their systems actually work with the GTK2 libraries as they should. We have already seen that with Ubuntu, note issues with Gnome version  of U19.10.

Please allow me to add that, XFCE always reflects the correct timing for transition between the GTK Releases.

This also the reason that it is the most rock solid desktop (imho)

Regards

munair

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2020, 03:26:11 pm »
We can all put efforts in migrating to GTK3 now, but before you know it, GTK3 will feel "outdated" too because pressure to migrate to GTK4 will be around the corner.  :D

marcov

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2020, 03:29:19 pm »
We can all put efforts in migrating to GTK3 now, but before you know it, GTK3 will feel "outdated" too because pressure to migrate to GTK4 will be around the corner.  :D

Yeah, we'll just say we skip the odd versions because we thought they were development versions  ;)

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2020, 04:21:00 pm »
We can all put efforts in migrating to GTK3 now, but before you know it, GTK3 will feel "outdated" too because pressure to migrate to GTK4 will be around the corner.  :D

Yeah, we'll just say we skip the odd versions because we thought they were development versions  ;)

According to this https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GTK/Roadmap/GTK4 is nearly ready.

The point is that Gnome and Mate will be the first adopting it.

XFCE and other GTK Desktops, will usually have a delay.

So, skipping it, it may not be a good idea at this point.

Anyway, try to do you best, because the removal of GTK2 will affect everyone.

Regards

 

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