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Author Topic: When GTK3 in Lazarus?  (Read 10460 times)

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2020, 10:20:48 am »
Hi to all,

Sorry if is not the right thread.

I would like to ask the same question and to mention that, now we are not certain for how long Qt5 will continue to exist on Linux Distributions, due to the change of their policy, as stated here https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Qt-Might-Restrict-New-Releases  :(

If they don't step back (imho, they will not), many of the Linux users will be forced to leave KDE, so they will return back to GTK3 Desktops.

Also consider that, GTK2 Desktops have nearly reached to eol.

As stated here https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Roadmap#General_status_of_LCL_interfaces, it is still on Alpha Stage.

Therefor, it's development should go on instead of Qt5.

Awaiting further news.

Regards

Directly from Qt:
https://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2020-January/038316.html

Only LTS binary / and devel binaries created by Qt are affected.
For LTS you need commercial licence, for binaries you need an account at Qt. Basically, nothing changes for linux distros and commercial users which uses linux packages.
So, only LTS won't be available for all users. That's how I understood those changes.

zeljko

For now yes, LTS versions only are affected.

But, nobody can be certain for the next day.

Qt, has always been a FOSS nightmare.

Please note that the only Desktop that uses it, is actually KDE, not very famous in Linux FOSS Communities, in fact they do not want to depend on any Qt.

So, I believe that GTK3 must change it's stage from Alpha.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 10:25:00 am by linuxer »

marcov

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2020, 10:24:17 am »
Now that GTK4 branchng is imminent, GTK3 is planned to stabilize. Even GIMP is only now migrating.

But afiak with GTK the problem is that bugs outside a few core apps (Gnome, GIMP) are often not fixed. In GTK2 times that was better, but there is no real solution for that.

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2020, 10:32:37 am »
Maybe your point is correct, I am not aware of it, but GTK in general has to go and goes further.

But, as an XFCE user, I have seen the smooth transition from GTK2 to GTK3, and everything is working fine.

So, perhaps this point, may has to be searched further or revised.

PascalDragon

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2020, 01:27:33 pm »
For now yes, LTS versions only are affected.

But, nobody can be certain for the next day.

Qt, has always been a FOSS nightmare.

There is no for now. If the owners of Qt should decide to change the language from LGPL to something completely proprietary than the community would simply fork it before that point and continue on, because they wouldn't accept such a change.

marcov

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2020, 01:29:36 pm »
Maybe your point is correct, I am not aware of it, but GTK in general has to go and goes further.

Well, then the people that believe in that should get working on it  ;D
 

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2020, 01:39:42 pm »
For now yes, LTS versions only are affected.

But, nobody can be certain for the next day.

Qt, has always been a FOSS nightmare.

There is no for now. If the owners of Qt should decide to change the language from LGPL to something completely proprietary than the community would simply fork it before that point and continue on, because they wouldn't accept such a change.


Thanks for your reply.

Hope that they will do so, actually if not already done, it should be started when they stated this https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Qt-Going-More-Commercial.

Regards
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 03:19:47 pm by linuxer »

JuhaManninen

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2020, 02:34:12 pm »
For now yes, LTS versions only are affected.
But, nobody can be certain for the next day.
Of course not. A virus or a meteor can wipe out the human race. Whatever can happen.
However I don't see any signs or reasons why QT would kill its open source license. Its dual license has proven to be symbiotic and it continues to be so. QT might be the best example of such a symbiotic dual license.

Quote
Qt, has always been a FOSS nightmare.
No it hasn't. Such FUD was spread already some 20 years ago althougth QT's license was very clear. Apparently the same FUD continues.

Quote
Please note that the only Desktop that uses it, is actually KDE, not very famous in Linux FOSS Communities, in fact they do not want to depend on any Qt.
Really? What GUI library they want to use instead? Do you have links for details?
KDE is among the 3 most famous desktops. I don't know what you mean by "not very famous".

Quote
So, I believe that GTK3 must change it's stage from Alpha.
I guess you mean LCL-GTK3 bindings. The only thing slowing down its development is lack of developers willing to improve it. Please remember, this is a volunteer project. Nobody gets paid. If there was a commercial company supporting the development (with a dual license of LCL maybe), things would be different.
Patches are welcome!

Trying to speed up LCL-GTK3 development is understandable but why did you connect the FUD against QT into it?

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2020, 03:39:22 pm »
For now yes, LTS versions only are affected.
But, nobody can be certain for the next day.
Of course not. A virus or a meteor can wipe out the human race. Whatever can happen.
However I don't see any signs or reasons why QT would kill its open source license. Its dual license has proven to be symbiotic and it continues to be so. QT might be the best example of such a symbiotic dual license.

Quote
Qt, has always been a FOSS nightmare.
No it hasn't. Such FUD was spread already some 20 years ago althougth QT's license was very clear. Apparently the same FUD continues.

Quote
Please note that the only Desktop that uses it, is actually KDE, not very famous in Linux FOSS Communities, in fact they do not want to depend on any Qt.
Really? What GUI library they want to use instead? Do you have links for details?
KDE is among the 3 most famous desktops. I don't know what you mean by "not very famous".

Quote
So, I believe that GTK3 must change it's stage from Alpha.
I guess you mean LCL-GTK3 bindings. The only thing slowing down its development is lack of developers willing to improve it. Please remember, this is a volunteer project. Nobody gets paid. If there was a commercial company supporting the development (with a dual license of LCL maybe), things would be different.
Patches are welcome!

Trying to speed up LCL-GTK3 development is understandable but why did you connect the FUD against QT into it?

I will give an answer to all points.

KDE it may appears to be among the 3 most used Desktops, but such things may change and are not always as the way they appear to be.
In FOSS community, we have repeatedly mentioned the doubt for Qt, due to it's history and policy and is not a FUD.
I am not ironic, or anything else, when mentioning about the next day, but stating instead, what may follows.
I have referred to GTK3 in general, ok, but I meant the LCL-GTK3 bindings as my main point, I admit.
But also fails the Lazarus build with it.
And of course I know that it is a volunteered project and for this reason I am trying to spread it's usage more, directly to Linux Distributions, where I am a member of the development team.
The fact that you find the license ok, does not mean that there are people who do not.
E.g. when Qt made the last statement, I have seen even the rejection of KDE and Qt to be a possibility from Distributions.
Therefor I made my first question to this place.
If not here, where?

Regards

zeljko

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2020, 04:34:07 pm »
KDE it may appears to be among the 3 most used Desktops, but such things may change and are not always as the way they appear to be.
In FOSS community, we have repeatedly mentioned the doubt for Qt, due to it's history and policy and is not a FUD.
I am not ironic, or anything else, when mentioning about the next day, but stating instead, what may follows.
I have referred to GTK3 in general, ok, but I meant the LCL-GTK3 bindings as my main point, I admit.
But also fails the Lazarus build with it.
And of course I know that it is a volunteered project and for this reason I am trying to spread it's usage more, directly to Linux Distributions, where I am a member of the development team.
The fact that you find the license ok, does not mean that there are people who do not.
E.g. when Qt made the last statement, I have seen even the rejection of KDE and Qt to be a possibility from Distributions.
Therefor I made my first question to this place.
If not here, where?

Regards

If you care about Lazarus future with Qt/Qt5 then feel free to maintain and finish gtk3 widgetset (or pay someone to do so).
I've commited gtk3 widgetset alpha 7 yrs ago and there's maybe 3-4 ppl which contribute something to gtk3. That's why it's still alpha - no interest and no spare time.

zeljko

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2020, 04:36:05 pm »

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2020, 05:23:45 pm »
Sorry it's not 7yrs ago but 6 yrs and 9 months per svn
https://svn.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi?view=revision&root=lazarus&revision=41811

Too much time.

But especially me, I have most of my time spent, as a Linux developer.

Otherwise, yes I would.



 

PascalDragon

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2020, 05:24:18 pm »
Hope that they will do so, actually if not already done, it should be started when they stated this https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Qt-Going-More-Commercial.

Considering the Phoronix articles from yesterday and today it could possibly come that KDE and others fork Qt... (though nothing is sure yet)

But as I said: if worse comes to worst then KDE and others will very likely try to continue developing Qt themselves (don't forget that Qt is also used by many others applications and libraries, not only KDE).

linuxer

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2020, 05:31:11 pm »
Hope that they will do so, actually if not already done, it should be started when they stated this https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Qt-Going-More-Commercial.

Considering the Phoronix articles from yesterday and today it could possibly come that KDE and others fork Qt... (though nothing is sure yet)

But as I said: if worse comes to worst then KDE and others will very likely try to continue developing Qt themselves (don't forget that Qt is also used by many others applications and libraries, not only KDE).

Thanks for the update.

I will be really happy, to find out that there is a forked Qt project.  :) :) :) :)

Regards

zeljko

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2020, 05:51:53 pm »

Considering the Phoronix articles from yesterday and today it could possibly come that KDE and others fork Qt... (though nothing is sure yet)

But as I said: if worse comes to worst then KDE and others will very likely try to continue developing Qt themselves (don't forget that Qt is also used by many others applications and libraries, not only KDE).

I'm sure that Qt will be alive & kicking in any case :)


dbannon

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Re: When GTK3 in Lazarus?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2020, 02:02:23 am »
Please note that the only Desktop that uses it, is actually KDE, not very famous in Linux FOSS Communities, in fact they do not want to depend on any Qt.
Plus of course Ubuntu Kylin which by all reports has quite a lot of users. And Deepin, LXQt .....

So, I believe that GTK3 must change it's stage from Alpha.
Yes, of course. The trouble I found with GTK3 is is keeps changing. One of the GTK3 things I tried to chase down had been implemented nicely in LCL-GTK3 but soon after implementation the api used was declared deprecated.  By time I came to use it, it had been withdrawn. So, I spent some weeks finding a workaround, only to watch as the API I decided to use was also declared deprecated.

If you have a big team of developers, perhaps all wearing red hats, who work in a office next door to the Gnome developers, maybe you can keep up. But they do not make it easy !

Davo
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