:-X dude, if you install Laz via a Debian package manager (say, synaptic or apt), most likely, you have already set up yourself for total failure in Pascal. :-\What distro did you install Lazarus with? The Debian package manager is used by several distros, including non-debian based. My experience from the last couple of years is that Lazarus and FPC work great out of the box with Debian 7 to 9 after installation from the repo. No struggle whatsover. With GTK based desktops everything should work right away. With a Qt based desktop you may have to manually install the lcl-qt library (from the repo).
Laz is nothing like Delphi, which just worked and gave you a powerful RAD/IDE after just one double-click.
With Laz, you have to struggle for days to get anywhere at all.
Is there anyone out there, who actually had a favorable first impression of Laz ? I kinda doubt it ... ;D
Is there anyone out there, who actually had a favorable first impression of Laz ? I kinda doubt it ... ;D
Laz is nothing like Delphi, which just worked and gave you a powerful RAD/IDE after just one double-click.I switched to Lazarus from Delphi when Lazarus was 0.24 version young (you can't imagine how buggy it was) in Windows (was it 2006?). And those days it was at least comparable to Delphi (I don't remember which Delphi version I used), imho even better.
Laz is nothing like Delphi, which just worked and gave you a powerful RAD/IDE after just one double-click.
I don't know what you are talking about (except that Debian lags big time) because when you install the latest stable Debian you can install a rather proper Lazarus and FPC.Where does Debian lag? Except for its more conservative nature, it is one of the best operating systems in existence. True, one needs to add drivers if an open-source alternative is not available like with wireless networks. But if I compare a fresh install to Windows (as we're talking Delphi here too), Setting up Debian is more pleasant, easier, cheaper and faster. Unless Windows is a preinstalled OEM, there is a lot of work with installing drivers, tuning and tweaking and going through the now extensive list of services to get it working more optimal. Not to mention the regular cleaning up of the registry and hard drive.
In my experience, the most pain free installation option for Lazarus on any Linux is fpcupdeluxe (http://"http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,34645.0.html")Most common problem comes from installing manually downloaded deb packages. Installing Lazarus from the distro's official repository shouldn't give much problems. (I haven't had any with the last few versions of Debian).
I've had problems with the Debian packages, and I wonder how they could ever work, considering that many aspects of Lazarus/FPC requires write access to units (package installation and IDE rebuild).
Fpcupdeluxe is a frontend for building Lazarus/FPC from source, and it is 'installed' in your home directory. I recommend that very warmly!
(And surprised that it hasn't become the default installation method on *nix)
:-X dude, if you install Laz via a Debian package manager (say, synaptic or apt), most likely, you have already set up yourself for total failure in Pascal. :-\Not to my experience using FPC and Lazarus since v.1.x. But yes, you gotta know what you're going to do before hand.
Laz is nothing like Delphi, which just worked and gave you a powerful RAD/IDE after just one double-click.Of course, but Delphi (IDE) only works on Windows, while Lazarus and FPC works (almost) everywhere. And you have to pay thousands of dollars to have Delphi with equal features as Lazarus IDE which comes free. And especially on Linux, I think Lazarus IDE is the best RAD IDE and development tool on Linux.
With Laz, you have to struggle for days to get anywhere at all.For days? at all? Clearly you're exaggerating. Even for pre-1.0 version, you may only need a few hours to get FPC and Lazarus installed and working correctly. Yes, sometimes it got problem on specific version on some distributions. But overall, it's not that difficult if you know what to do. Just read some tutorials or wikis before starting.
Is there anyone out there, who actually had a favorable first impression of Laz ? I kinda doubt it ... ;DI am. I'm using Lazarus since v.0.x. Compare to those old pre-1.0 version, current Lazarus is far more easier and a lot better.
I think Martin is doing against Debian now, so I expect no more problems to come.Linux and Mac are build by Mattias.
It should be noted that distros based on Debian Testing (like Ubuntu or Mint) may cause problems, often dependency related. In fact, I did try those distros and they weren't as stable as Debian in the long run. Most common problem was broken dependencies. But even there your "struggle for days" sounds exaggerated.
In my experience, the most pain free installation option for Lazarus on any Linux is fpcupdeluxe (http://"http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,34645.0.html")
In my experience, the most pain free installation option for Lazarus on any Linux is fpcupdeluxe (http://"http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,34645.0.html")
I've had problems with the Debian packages, and I wonder how they could ever work, considering that many aspects of Lazarus/FPC requires write access to units (package installation and IDE rebuild).
Fpcupdeluxe is a frontend for building Lazarus/FPC from source, and it is 'installed' in your home directory. I recommend that very warmly!
(And surprised that it hasn't become the default installation method on *nix)
if Laz is as stable as some cult believers in here claim, then why are there only 6 or 7 notewothy apps written with fpc at all? Should be much more popular!That's another different thing to discuss. Popularity today almost doesn't have anything to do with quality. Java sucks, yet many people praise it and using it. D*n*ld Tr*mps sucks, yet he got elected for presidency in a big and developed country. If you think popularity means good quality, perhaps you should use Java instead.
@mai
If you've got some problems with LINUX or LAZARUS, then don't use it and the pain goes away immediately. LINUX isn't for everyone... The same applies to LAZARUS... :P
Or search for someone who is able to and give him/her some bucks to do the job... :D
that kind of reaction is pretty typical for suckware. mind you, even the wares by "suckless software" actually sucks quite badly, their usability is next to zero.Ah, ok, I see... In that case you should probably exchange your computer with a television. Believe me it's much easier to handle ... I guess one or two weeks and you understand the concept...
In my experience, the most pain free installation option for Lazarus on any Linux is fpcupdeluxe (http://"http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,34645.0.html")
I've had problems with the Debian packages, and I wonder how they could ever work, considering that many aspects of Lazarus/FPC requires write access to units (package installation and IDE rebuild).
Fpcupdeluxe is a frontend for building Lazarus/FPC from source, and it is 'installed' in your home directory. I recommend that very warmly!
(And surprised that it hasn't become the default installation method on *nix)
more often than not, I got error with fpcupdeluxe
if you use all buttons available , most of them will produce huge FAIL !
that is why fpcupdeluxe is not the default installer. only under rare circumstances, fpcupdeluxe will actually work.
You gave the answer yourself.... I exclusively use Debian or Debian derivatives, unless I am instructed to do otherwise.I don't know what you are talking about (except that Debian lags big time) because when you install the latest stable Debian you can install a rather proper Lazarus and FPC.Where does Debian lag? Except for its more conservative nature
My first impression is that Mai already made his choice: Delphi is great and Lazarus is nothing.
Well then, congratulations. But why are you still here? Not everyone must fit with a tool's philosophy. If you're OK with some other tools, go with them instead of mumbling and whining for nothing. We don't experience your difficulty (nor we know how capable you are) just like many others do, so don't generalize your experience. Contribute or silent, that's all I can say to people like you, because you clearly has no good intention in creating this thread.My first impression is that Mai already made his choice: Delphi is great and Lazarus is nothing.
Delphi was great in the 1990's and Lazarus consistsently gave me much trouble right out of the box. So I used python + Qt-Designer which was way better to handle.
@LeledumboAttention whore? :D
Well then, congratulations. But why are you still here?
Attention whore - definition
A person who craves attention to such an extent that they will do anything to receive it.
The type of attention (negative or positive) does not matter.
I agree. It's the one thing that Linux developers are doing against themselves, or against Linux, not just Debian. Every change (including incompatible) is released immediately (the kernel in particular) and because of the immediate availability, people believe they need to update/upgrade to have the latest cutting-edge. This is a mistake and it works against Linux, which is why I believe it never became a prominent desktop OS. I said it for years. If a new Debian comes out, the kernel itself is already considered 'old' being three subversions behind. Still, it doesn't mean that it lacks and it raises the question what is more preferable: a stable system or having the very latest.You gave the answer yourself.... I exclusively use Debian or Debian derivatives, unless I am instructed to do otherwise.I don't know what you are talking about (except that Debian lags big time) because when you install the latest stable Debian you can install a rather proper Lazarus and FPC.Where does Debian lag? Except for its more conservative nature
But I am a pro and can see that beginners or amateurs are not always up to the extra work to have a more current Lazarus/FPC.
They read about features that may not be in the Debian distro.... That's all.
I Actually like the conservative approach of Debian, but that can be misleading in the context of this forum and the online documentation
But it isn't the RAD environment you prefer right? Lazarus works great out of the box. I never had any problems installing or using it developing great software, not on Windows and not on Linux (no OSX experience here).My first impression is that Mai already made his choice: Delphi is great and Lazarus is nothing.
Delphi was great in the 1990's and Lazarus consistsently gave me much trouble right out of the box. So I used python + Qt-Designer which was way better to handle.
That quote wasn't from marcov. How did you manage to switch?
It should be noted that distros based on Debian Testing (like Ubuntu or Mint) may cause problems, often dependency related. In fact, I did try those distros and they weren't as stable as Debian in the long run. Most common problem was broken dependencies. But even there your "struggle for days" sounds exaggerated.
it is not exaggerated. I installed Laz via synaptic many many times e.g. on various debian derivates and I don't remember even one time where I obtained a workable install.
I always got into "units not found" errors and such or IDE won't recompile etc..
fpcup-deluxe works, but breaks if you install fp and Laz separartely. That is not ideal at all.
That quote wasn't from marcov. How did you manage to switch?
keep mumbling cryptically... not sure whether u have anything to say at allI spell it out for you then. The quote made is not from marcov rather from eugene (if not mistaken).
we're getting off-topic a lil bitAddressing misquotes within the thread isn't off-topic. If you're as accurate with coding/compiling as with adjusting quotes in your replies, I perfectly understand why you're having so many problems.
I did run debian stable and also installed Laz there. I don't remember it being significantly less problematic.Did you install it from the repo? If so, what problems did you find? It seems to be working with everyone else here. Again, installing manually downloaded deb files can cause problems because of dependency issues. That's Linux. And you have to make sure all development libraries are installed, but Debian will fix that for you too. The only "problem" I found was that I had to install the lcl-qt4 library as it wasn't marked as a dependency by default. And I had to tell Lazarus that I want to compile against the KDE desktop. That's all. Two adjustments fixed within a minute. If you have a GTK based desktop everything should work out of the box. But if you start with unsupported packages or even compiling everything from source, then you really have to know what you're doing.
I did run debian stable and also installed Laz there. I don't remember it being significantly less problematic.It seems to be working with everyone else here.
There simply isn't any better development environment - any language- for any language available that has the same speed and stability.Couldn't agree more. :-X
Designed for those who want to be helped. ;DI did run debian stable and also installed Laz there. I don't remember it being significantly less problematic.It seems to be working with everyone else here.
if that is so, what do you need a help-forum for?
Designed for those who want to be helped. ;DI did run debian stable and also installed Laz there. I don't remember it being significantly less problematic.It seems to be working with everyone else here.
if that is so, what do you need a help-forum for?
I think Martin is doing against Debian now, so I expect no more problems to come.Linux and Mac are build by Mattias.
I did run debian stable and also installed Laz there. I don't remember it being significantly less problematic.It seems to be working with everyone else here.
if that is so, what do you need a help-forum for?
I do think its a valid question.The main difference between Delphi and Lazarus is that the first is a proprietary product from a (big) company where programmers are paid (very well), while the latter is open-source maintained by volunteers (including documentation). In this respect you cannot compare the two.
I have been using Lazarus for a few months now, was a Delphi 2 user long ago. So, first impression, wow, look at that ! Then I found a very helpful forum, lots of knowledgeable people very keen to help. So, 'yes' a good impression.
But not perfect ! (I am not trying to beat anyone up here but if we don't look at what needs improving, nothing will improve.) I found the Ubuntu package version difficult. Later I grabbed the 1.8rcX series and that was heaps better. I had trouble getting the "F1" help system working and think its a pity its seen as an add on. But I do acknowledge its not great anyway, very slow and incomplete. I do remember the Delphi version to be a lot better.
And I guess the general level of documentation is Lazaru's weak point if it has one. Scroll through the wiki and see how many pages talk about very, very old issues. How many things simply are not documented at all !
An example ? I spent a fair while this morning trying to get a function in "FileUtil" working in a console app. Turns out its a LCL component, F1 cannot tell me that. And I sort of got hints I should use LazFileUtils instead. OK, where is LazFileUtils documented ? Wait the 60 seconds or so for F1 to tell me it found an almost blank page in 27ms. Google cannot do any better.
(Now, if you are about to say, "if you don't like whats on the wiki, fix it" - be assured I have already added quite a bit to various Lazarus wiki pages. But a drop in the ocean compared to whats needed.)
But back to original question ? Yes, overall, a very good first (and subsequent) impression. And I will keep hacking at the wiki.
I do think its a valid question.
I I had trouble getting the "F1" help system working and think its a pity its seen as an add on. But I do acknowledge its not great anyway, very slow and incomplete. I do remember the Delphi version to be a lot better.
In my experience, the most pain free installation option for Lazarus on any Linux is fpcupdeluxe (http://"http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,34645.0.html")
No.
e.g. if you run "make" or "sudo make install" you will immeditately "enter a world of pain" (Walter of "big Lebowski") and everything will break at once.
Forget about F1. The help files never are up-to-date. But you have the source code and an excellent code navigation system. If you want to learn which procedures are contained in unit LazFileUtils, "ctrl-left"on "LazFileUtils" in the uses line - the code editor will open this unit for you to browse. If you want to learn about the parameters of a function, "ctrl-left" click on it again to open its implementation or interface declaration in the editor, press Ctrl-Up or Ctrl-Down to switch to interface or implementation sections. The only requirements are that the packages/units are mentioned in the project requirements /unit uses clauses, respectively. The most important advantage of this way of getting help is that you learn a lot about the code. And with this knowledge you once will be able to write patches to improve the product according to your needs, instead of lamenting about its shortcomings.I do think its a valid question.
I I had trouble getting the "F1" help system working and think its a pity its seen as an add on. But I do acknowledge its not great anyway, very slow and incomplete. I do remember the Delphi version to be a lot better.
same here! I gave up on context help and just use a browser which works, instead of whatever it is they programmed in Pascal for "F1 help". At least that way I can find stuff from the rtl.
In Delphi: F1 and you got what you were looking for. (though D2 was better than D3 in that respect.)
more often than not, I got error with fpcupdeluxeSo you expect to use trunk versions of dozens of components with all possible combinations of FPC/LAZ (old, stable, fixes, trunk...) and you expect everything to work out of the box? No breakages, no incompabilities, no compilation issues? For such expectations one should stick to stable or fixes branch and without 3rd party components.
if you use all buttons available , most of them will produce huge FAIL !
Forget about F1.I do not agree with this. I first try F1, then wiki is usually the second, google third, and source browsing last. Although sometimes source can be second or even first. ;-)
A couple of months ago I tried openSUSE Tumbleweed for exactly this reason. It is the most up-to-date rolling release distro and in fact it worked quite well and pretty stable. Unfortunately, the package maintainers don't seem too eager to update Lazarus still being at version 1.6.2. But if one wants to compile the latest Lazarus and FPC, openSUSE Tumbleweed may be a better choice, but I have no experience there.I must comment on this one.
Packagers make decisions. If you do a comparison, you will find that openSUSE Tumbleweed is one of the most if not THE most up-to-date distro. This certainly applies to the Linux kernel and the desktop. It is closely followed by Fedora. But not all available Linux software can be packaged every week.A couple of months ago I tried openSUSE Tumbleweed for exactly this reason. It is the most up-to-date rolling release distro and in fact it worked quite well and pretty stable. Unfortunately, the package maintainers don't seem too eager to update Lazarus still being at version 1.6.2. But if one wants to compile the latest Lazarus and FPC, openSUSE Tumbleweed may be a better choice, but I have no experience there.I must comment on this one.
How could openSUSE Tumbleweed be the most up-to-date rolling distro if it doesn't have even recent versions of FPC and Lazarus?
Manjaro, also a rolling distro, has the latest of them always. I don't know who maintans all their packages but it is an impressive collection.
I believe Arch is very good, too, but I was lazy to learn its installation.
I had openSUSE Tumbleweed in a travelling laptop ~2 years ago. I noticed its package selection is very limited and outdated. The emphasis clearly is to test the distro development itself, not the applications a user may need. I guess for that reason it has logging or debug info or something enabled which slows down its startup a lot. Starting it took many times longer than good distros do. The actual OpenSuse releases start faster.
Thus, I would not recommend openSUSE Tumbleweed for anybody, except for OpenSuse distro developers.
Packagers make decisions. If you do a comparison, you will find that openSUSE Tumbleweed is one of the most if not THE most up-to-date distro. This certainly applies to the Linux kernel and the desktop. It is closely followed by Fedora. But not all available Linux software can be packaged every week.
Early on Tumbleweed wasn't as stable, but this has changed. You can read the many reviews on the internet. Now, this doesn't mean that I would recommend Tumbleweed or openSUSE in general. It has issues, especially with multimedia like playing Youtube. But I still have it running on a spare computer for several months now and it is pretty stable. I actually developed part of my software here very comfortably.
My first few impressions of Lazarus were not that great.
By this time I have documented (http://wiki.freepascal.org/Unit_not_found_-_How_to_find_units) what will have haunted quite a number of users of debian derivates (Mint, Ubu, ...) and is a real showstopper. Immediately after installing a secondary checkout, say "trunk", a recurring "unit not found" will ruin the whole experience right then and there.Great job! Thank you. :)
Immediately after installing a secondary checkout, say "trunk", a recurring "unit not found" will ruin the whole experience right then and there.Secondary checkout of what? FPC or Lazarus?
Many FPC versions in your $PATH however break things for sure.Let's see if he is right by looking at how these things are done in industry standards GCC compiler:
So, if I have multiple GCCs in path and I have problematic experience during various source compilations, should I go to GCC forum and tell them that they should fix it because I think it should work my way?No you should stop abusing my system with out permision and use your own config file. The path in my system is to be used by me you need permision to change it and even then you should ask permision once more just before changing in case I changed my mind. The path is THE biggest friction point so stop using it.
I got openSUSE Tumbleweed from work.But still no recent versions of FPC nor Lazarus...
It installs 1000 updates every week! If that is not up-to-date, what could be?
Immediately after installing a secondary checkout, say "trunk", a recurring "unit not found" will ruin the whole experience right then and there.Secondary checkout of what? FPC or Lazarus?
Many simultaneous Lazarus checkouts are OK when you keep them in separate directories, and maybe use --pcp= config path as needed.
Many FPC versions in your $PATH however break things for sure. Why would you do such thing? It is obviously a bad idea. Was it the fundamental reason for your problems?
The wiki page you updated should be very accurate. Please make sure the advice given is correct.
I am fairly certain I ran into this preset trap like 15 times or so. apt, fcpUP, and the Laz Makefile need to harmonize to avoid that situation.You must have done something unusual.
A few days ago I again tried Lazarus on both PCLinuxOS and AntiX (based on Debian Testing) and Lazarus works great! Over the years I've used Qt Creator, CodeBlocks, Visual Studio, (tried) Gambas and a few others and I was really blown away by how easy and complete Lazarus is!I hope the haters see this. :)
The only wish I have for Lazarus is an option to make it all work in one window (a la Gimp's 'single window mode').Please go to Lazarus Menu --> Packages --> Install/Unistall packages, then search for anchordockingdsgn 0.5 and sparta_dockedformeditor 0.0. Install both packages then rebuild IDE.
mai, I think you already had made up your mind when starting this thread.Actually @mai has changed his mind, now is a big lazarus fan.
The only wish I have for Lazarus is an option to make it all work in one window....
Immediately after installing a secondary checkout, say "trunk", a recurring "unit not found" will ruin the whole experience right then and there.
Rename all but one and use -V
Then started to look for cross-platform solutions, and used REALbasic (now Xojo) for over a decade. That started out as impressively easy to use, but was slow, buggy, and got increasingly expensive.I have close to the same experience with REALbasic. More than once I read reviews stating that it's rediculously easy to write a program. In the early days it was indeed pretty buggy, but I still have RB2011r4 on Linux quite stable, although I hardly use it anymore, mostly because it compiles against GTK2. I never tried Xojo, but it seems that especially on Linux the IDE has become very slow and not at all responsive. Some menus literally take over 5 seconds to open! Certainly not something to recommend. However, the concept of the RB IDE wasn't bad at all.
Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
Well, figured that Lazarus is still extremely buggy and unstable. Debugger crashing very often, IDE throwing SEGFAULT errors when switching code tabs. Can't switch between form and code, even though the project clearly has forms, etc.
Not pleased.
Well, figured that Lazarus is still extremely buggy and unstable. Debugger crashing very often, IDE throwing SEGFAULT errors when switching code tabs. Can't switch between form and code, even though the project clearly has forms, etc.
You did install version 1.8.x ?Yes. 1.8.4.
Any extra packages installed (included, or 3rd party)?No. Just pure Lazarus.
Can you rebuild your IDE with debug info (Menu: Tools > Configure build lazarus: Custom options -gw -gl -Criot -gh -O-1 ) and start the IDE withI recompiled and run Lazarus with the options you stated. Interestingly, since that I haven't had any issues again and the IDE seems to run stable now. Tried many projects, switched tabs many times. No problems. I will keep an eye on it though.
lazarus.exe --debug-log=c:\logfile.txt (edit the properties of the desktop shortcut to add the option)
Then when the error happens, check the logfile, and report what is in it.
Anyway on how to reproduce any of that?
About the debugger. It currently relies on GDB (like a lot of other open source projects, but unlike commercial products). GDB sometimes causes its own errors... That is no excuse, just an explanation. We are working on an alternative. But it takes a lot of time.Where can I find this debugger? Google only brings me to a Github repository 2 years old: https://github.com/alrieckert/lazarus/tree/master/components/lazdebuggers ... But I doubt that it is what you meant? Especially because you said "SVN" and not "GIT"?
You can test it by installing LazDebuggerFP, and configure (Tools > Options >Debugger) to use fpdebug. It is present in 1.8, but had lots of fixes in svn since.
Can't switch between form and code, even though the project clearly has formsRegarding that, I found out that the projects I opened had their forms positions saved in weird places, like Top -1352 or Left 2844. Seems like the author has some big monitor. :D
Maybe it didn't like the fact that I run it in a VMware guest OS?
Maybe it didn't like the fact that I run it in a VMware guest OS? I found out that some "sensible" operations seem to not like it. For instance running WinLicense to protect an application in the VMware, the protected app always crashes on start. While protecting the same app with the same options in a real host with the same OS, it works and runs.
Wow, nice to see that you guys actually care. :oWe try. We (the team) are outnumbered by users though... :)
It is possible you did hit an assertion. "assert(something)".Can you rebuild your IDE with debug info (Menu: Tools > Configure build lazarus: Custom options -gw -gl -Criot -gh -O-1 ) and start the IDE withI recompiled and run Lazarus with the options you stated. Interestingly, since that I haven't had any issues again and the IDE seems to run stable now. Tried many projects, switched tabs many times. No problems. I will keep an eye on it though.
lazarus.exe --debug-log=c:\logfile.txt (edit the properties of the desktop shortcut to add the option)
Maybe it didn't like the fact that I run it in a VMware guest OS? I found out that some "sensible" operations seem to not like it.I dont know, but I doubt it.
First of all, if you have gdb related issues, then 99% likely you would get "oops the debugger..." errors displayed.About the debugger. It currently relies on GDB (like a lot of other open source projects, but unlike commercial products). GDB sometimes causes its own errors... That is no excuse, just an explanation. We are working on an alternative. But it takes a lot of time.Where can I find this debugger? Google only brings me to a Github repository 2 years old: https://github.com/alrieckert/lazarus/tree/master/components/lazdebuggers ... But I doubt that it is what you meant? Especially because you said "SVN" and not "GIT"?
You can test it by installing LazDebuggerFP, and configure (Tools > Options >Debugger) to use fpdebug. It is present in 1.8, but had lots of fixes in svn since.
In the menu: Windows, there is "Center a lost window".Can't switch between form and code, even though the project clearly has formsRegarding that, I found out that the projects I opened had their forms positions saved in weird places, like Top -1352 or Left 2844. Seems like the author has some big monitor. :D
Today - Stuck on adding openFileDialog, openDirectoryDialog to my application.I don't think you can "redirect" the dialog (if that means "embed"). But check the misc tab, for ShellTreeView/ShellListView.
Then I need to direct the dialog itself to the form instead of dialog. - question again..
Then I'll need to open File... - again the same?
And each time - almost 3-4-5 pages of forum to find 10 lines of solution!?I don't think that the whole topic can be represented in the header. Also we can't force people to write a summary... What would be the "penality" for not doing it?
Respected moderators, is it possible, that person, who asks the question will be asked to summarize the whole topic to the header? After solution have been found?
first Impression...
It is good when you have a plenty of time, to find!! and learn concepts, try different things... But! When you need to make an application with certain functionality, but have to dig documents and wait for replies of forum instead...!!