Lazarus

Miscellaneous => Translations => Topic started by: Bart on May 14, 2017, 11:14:02 pm

Title: [Closed] Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Bart on May 14, 2017, 11:14:02 pm
Hi,

The dutch translation files for the IDE are not maintained very well.
Currently only about 27% of all strings are translated.

I suspect that most of the Dutch users of Lazarus do not use a translated IDE at all.
I come from the TP3.0 era, and I am very used to the english jargon that comes with programming (in Pascal).
Dutch translations of keywords like event, method, exception, enabled, visible etc. just seem a little "odd" to me.
I do OTOH use the Dutch lclstrconsts.nl.po file in almost all my programs.

Currently I am trying to translate the Dutch language file for the IDE.
This proves to be rather tedious.
First of all, because I am not a translator, second because the sheer mount of work involved.
I currently am at 39% transated strings.

I would really like to ask all Dutch users of Lazarus to fill in the poll.

Also I would like to know if anyone would volunteer to be the official Dutch translator?

Bart
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: rvk on May 14, 2017, 11:44:42 pm
First thing I always (need to) do, after zapping the config and a new install, is setting the language to English [en]. Even though I have my display language of Windows set to English, with the Automatic (or English) setting the IDE keeps displaying Dutch for me (grrrr  >:D)

So yeah, my preferred Language for development is always English because communication/programming/googling problems etc. is easier in English on the internet.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: wp on May 15, 2017, 12:17:14 am
with the Automatic (or English) setting the IDE keeps displaying Dutch for me
I think this is just a incorrect text, it means "Use the language for the OS". Therefore, the "(or English)" is misleading and should be removed.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: rvk on May 15, 2017, 12:22:07 am
with the Automatic (or English) setting the IDE keeps displaying Dutch for me
I think this is just a incorrect text, it means "Use the language for the OS". Therefore, the "(or English)" is misleading and should be removed.
Yes, but the setting still has a bug.
When I use Automatic it should display in the first language in the Language settings.
Below is my setting for languages.
And Lazarus keeps displaying Dutch when I set it to Automatic (which it shouldn't).

("Apps and websites will appear in the first language in the list that they support")

i.e. Lazarus IDE uses the regional setting (Dutch) and NOT the Language setting (which it should).
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: wp on May 15, 2017, 12:29:18 am
Isn't this specific of Win10? AFAIK, Win7 and the older versions have only the combo for "Region and Language".
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: rvk on May 15, 2017, 12:33:21 am
Isn't this specific of Win10? AFAIK, Win7 and the older versions have only the combo for "Region and Language".
As I can remember from WinXP onward there is a display setting which is different from the regional setting.

See below.

So using the regional setting is definitely the wrong setting to use (for Windows XP though to Windows 10). The regional settings are only to be used for currency, date format and news location. Not for language.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 15, 2017, 07:32:16 am
Aside: I believe I posted about the same problems rvk had and even filed a bug against it, which subsequently got massively ignored on purpose by dev's:
Lazarus makes/made assumptions based on the wrong locale. (I didn't check for some time) Which is a pain. >:D

But on topic: a Dutch translation of the IDE is imho a waste of time. Most users I know have the IDE firmly in English.
I do not even know of one that actually uses Dutch, except by accident after installation, that is.
And because it is also - in places - silly Dutch with contrived Dutchifications most would like to turn English on anyway. And google translate wasn't even used! (probably did a better job)

The current translation is good to have a laugh, then turn it off.... :D ;) O:-)

I wouldn't mind to see it go. So my vote is NO.

Maybe the language itself would be useful:
Code: Pascal  [Select][+][-]
  1. {$mode fpc}{$macro on}{$define voor := for}{$define tot := to}{$define schrijf := write}{$define gebruikt := uses}
  2. {$define einde := end}{$define programma := program}{$define doe := do}{$define heel := integer}
  3. programma mooi;
  4. Gebruikt crt;
  5. var i : heel;
  6. Begin
  7.   voor i := 0 tot 9 doe
  8.     schrijf(i);
  9. Einde.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: jadev on May 15, 2017, 08:47:53 am
Hi Bart,

I might be able to help out, if you don't mind waiting a few weeks. Currently my agenda won't allow it, but as soon as this project is finished I am willing to make some time to help you with the translation. I do translations quit regularly for work (course materials), but I am a novice when it comes to Lazarus. So I don't know if I would be a help or a bother. On the other hand, I almost never use Dutch language files for any software. It just feels weird to me to use Dutch on a computer.

Grx HdV
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 15, 2017, 08:50:44 am
It just feels weird to me to use Dutch on a computer.
That's what Bart would like to know: are you actually going to USE it? What's your vote?
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: nummer8 on May 15, 2017, 10:09:23 am
So yeah, my preferred Language for development is always English because communication/programming/googling problems etc. is easier in English on the internet.

For me also a NO.

Jos
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 15, 2017, 10:16:32 am
To help a little I added the Dutch pascal language here: http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,36887.msg246265/topicseen.html#new
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: MvC on May 15, 2017, 10:33:09 am
As an aside:
I think the question is posed slightly wrong.

As it is, it makes little sense to use the translation, since only 27% is actually translated.

So, do users not use it because
a) the translation is bad and  they don't see the sense of using a bad translation ?
or because
b) They don't need a dutch translation at all

The question should be:
If the translation was 100% correct, would you use it ?
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: jadev on May 15, 2017, 11:05:15 am
Hi Thaddy,

If forgot to write it, but I did vote "Almost never" before posting my message.

Grx HdV
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: MaartenW on May 15, 2017, 03:14:51 pm
'Ongemerkt' heb ik ooit als taal Nederlands gekozen en dat is die nog steeds. Inderdaad zijn veel teksten niet omgezet, maar dat zit me (blijkbaar) niet in de weg.
Ik heb tijd en gelegenheid om aan de vertaling mee te werken.
(Ik heb even gezocht, maar niet gevonden: kan ik makkelijk omschakelen van Nederlands naar een andere taal?).
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 15, 2017, 05:58:35 pm
(Ik heb even gezocht, maar niet gevonden: kan ik makkelijk omschakelen van Nederlands naar een andere taal?).
Kijk, daar heb je het al:
Als Engels de IDE taal is, is het makkelijk:  tools|options|environment|General|Language

Ik heb echt geen idee wat ze daar van gebakken hebben.... Als je zelf vertaalt: Als het niet lukt, gebruik dan Vlaams-Nederlands, je weet nooit... Geen idee.
Klopt niet met MS conventies, klopt niet met Linux conventies, klopt niet met Apple conventies...

Auf English:
Look, there you go. This is asking for trouble.
With the IDE in English it is easy: tools|options|environment|General|Language
I really have no clue what they came up with.... If you try to translate it yourself and it doesn't work: try some Flemish Dutch too... You never know... No clue.
Doesn't match MS conventions, doesn't match Linux conventions, doesn't match Apple conventions...

Note for translators:
tools|options|environment|General|Language are all in MS default translation database. Like many more...
In this case there may be a 50/50 chance it actually was translated right. By accident.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Ducth translation for IDE
Post by: jc99 on May 15, 2017, 07:06:16 pm
 ;D BTW the poll asks if you use "Ducth" language, even native dutch-speaker would normally never use that.  ;)
.... are non-dutch-speaking people supposed to vote ?
then how about a "I use another non-english translation"-entry or "i am not dutch-speaking"-entry
to the voting, so you have a more speaking result, since this thread is in a general (non dutch area).
Greetings from germany
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 15, 2017, 07:26:15 pm
Maybe he meant Duckish. Quack. Well spotted. None of us did.... {$macro on} {$define Ducth := Dutch}
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Bart on May 15, 2017, 10:49:57 pm
The question should be:
If the translation was 100% correct, would you use it ?

Good point.
Voters: please comment.

Bart
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Bart on May 15, 2017, 10:53:48 pm
'Ongemerkt' heb ik ooit als taal Nederlands gekozen en dat is die nog steeds. Inderdaad zijn veel teksten niet omgezet, maar dat zit me (blijkbaar) niet in de weg.
Ik heb tijd en gelegenheid om aan de vertaling mee te werken.

Goed om te horen.

(Ik heb even gezocht, maar niet gevonden: kan ik makkelijk omschakelen van Nederlands naar een andere taal?).

Menu->Huplmiddelen->Options (yeah)->Omgeving->Algemeen->Taal

Bart
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Ducth translation for IDE
Post by: Bart on May 15, 2017, 10:55:00 pm
;D BTW the poll asks if you use "Ducth" language, even native dutch-speaker would normally never use that.  ;)

 :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Bart
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: rvk on May 15, 2017, 10:59:07 pm
Nope, even if the translation was 100% perfect I wouldn't use it (unless everyone else would use it, and with that I mean also the non-Dutch speaking  8-) )

Fact remains that English is the main communication language for programming and also here on the forum. Thaddy already showed that with the remark "daar heb je het al:" when trying to explain how to set the language in the Lazarus IDE.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 16, 2017, 07:05:02 am
- An IDE in Dutch will always clash with programming terminology at some point. Actually many points. Which will confuse people.
- An IDE in Dutch has imho merits only for beginners and educational purposes. It is good for educational purposes if the translation is of high quality. That means working from a translation dictionary  database, like based on MS. That would ensure familiarity.
- If you want to do it right, you would also need an effort to translate the manuals and help files into Dutch. That's not feasible. Unless you are Tantalus or Sisyphus.(Forgot which one,maybe both apply)
- Offering support on it would probably also need a Dutch language forum

Personally, I actively discourage its use. I don't see the point to invest loads of time on what convincingly appears to be a niche anyway.
There are 100ths of Dutch Lazarus users. If 100 of them actually use it, It may be an option that 10 of them contribute in some way.
I don't think that is going to happen.

So no. Even with a perfect translation I don't see many advantages. Only disadvantages. Note that within the Dutch educational system children are taught the English language from an age of 10. On some elementary schools even earlier (I have a 8 year old daughter and she already has English lessons).
So even for children as young as that it does not add much value, if any.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: jadev on May 16, 2017, 10:38:14 am
Hai Bart,

In reactie op je oproep: nee, ook als de vertaling 100% goed zou zijn zou ik geen NL-instelling gebruiken.

In response to your request: no, even if the translation would be 100% accurate I still wouldn't use it.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 16, 2017, 11:34:07 am
@Bart
Quote
Menu->Huplmiddelen->Options (yeah)->Omgeving->Algemeen->Taal


"Huplmiddelen" Now let me guess..
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: jacobb on May 16, 2017, 11:37:33 am
I also never use Dutch and that doesn't depend on the quality of the translation. It's the same as with a lot of other programs I use.
The default language in most communities is English and if you need to research a certain problem the most likely language to find information in is English.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: marcov on May 16, 2017, 12:27:22 pm
That and the fact that there wasn't even an attempt to standardize IT jargon in Dutch after the early eighties, magazines and paper don't use it and have no guidelines to tap.

So that means that every Dutch translation is an own island.

Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 16, 2017, 12:48:45 pm
That and the fact that there wasn't even an attempt to standardize IT jargon in Dutch after the early eighties, magazines and paper don't use it and have no guidelines to tap.
That's not true.
CEH or its predecessor (no not the certified hackers, but a kind of platform for technology), initiated by the ministry of economic affairs, raised a work-group to address that issue in about 1997.
It never came to full fruition.  Reason: the members from the private sector and the academics weren't very interested and the civil servants were not in any way qualified.
Much like it is now... <Sigh> I must have some docs lying around, because it was in my PerfectView days. I know for sure Vincent Evers and Peter Backer gave a lot of feedback then.

Half of what I know about user interfaces (and internationalization) was taught to me by Peter Backer. The other half based on books he recommended. Like "About Face" which also has some insightful texts about translations. (SO ON TOPIC)

So there was an(actually multiple: there was also a linguistic group involved from Leiden) effort that bled to death.
We should really pay more taxes if the government promises to spend it on in-house IT knowledge. (Honestly!)
But that would go on a balance sheet and doesn't look good (salary scales: is that per week or per day? No,it's per month.. No joke.I thought it was.. >:D) , instead of on the current account where you can make third party hire conveniently disappear... And in effect pay market rates.(I know how, I am also a political scientist as you know)
[Edit] it was CEP, doh. I'm getting old...
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Bart on May 16, 2017, 10:27:36 pm
@Bart
Quote
Menu->Huplmiddelen->Options (yeah)->Omgeving->Algemeen->Taal
"Huplmiddelen" Now let me guess..

Gereedschap dan?
Kun je vast ook een mooi plaatje bij vinden.

Bart
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on May 17, 2017, 04:05:04 am
https://www.google.nl/search?q=wrecking+ball+pictures&rlz=1C1NHXL_enNL738NL738&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjigY-l6_XTAhWIJlAKHZC_B_0QsAQILA
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Bart on May 17, 2017, 07:22:44 pm
Zo destructief is dat menu in lazarus toch ook niet?

Bart
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: DonAlfredo on May 18, 2017, 03:54:28 pm
I see Dutch signatures everywhere ...
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: eny on May 18, 2017, 09:59:47 pm
Not gonna use it even if it would be a 'good' translation.
Same reasons as already mentioned above.

And yes, Dutch here.
Proof: The handsome hairdresser snaps handsome but the handsome hairdresser's knee snaps even better than the handsome hairdresser cuts  :P
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on June 12, 2017, 10:54:02 am
Ik denk dat we dit even moeten openhouden?
Als je de antwoorden goed leest meet je nu niet goed (Zie MvC's commentaar).
En van de huidige 2 gebruikers is er tenminste 1 die Nederlands min of meer bij toeval gebruikt.

Aanpassing: 1) Kunnen we Nederlands in het geheel laten vallen? 2) Of moeten we beter ons best doen voor een goede vertaling? Ik heb zo'n vermoeden dat het toch 1 wordt.. Maar de steekproef is een beetje klein. Want er zijn honderden Nederlandstalige Lazarus gebruikers.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: fred on June 12, 2017, 11:17:30 am
Added my vote which is sadly never...
But i agree, if it's included it should be complete.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: schutter on June 12, 2017, 11:21:32 am
Een goede Nederlandse vertaling zou welkom zijn.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: JanRoza on June 12, 2017, 12:02:34 pm
Although I'm Dutch the first thing I always do after installing Lazaus/fpc is switching language to English.
It's so much easier that way as programming languages are (almost) always based on English.
But if a Dutch language is provided (for those who want it) it should be complete.
Just my humble opinion  8)
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: jc99 on June 12, 2017, 04:38:10 pm
I see Dutch signatures everywhere ...
Sorry dat is nid e Dutch Sig dat isa DISK sig. Say da Gölsch. ;)
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: eny on June 12, 2017, 09:05:59 pm
Want er zijn honderden Nederlandstalige Lazarus gebruikers.
Bestaande NL gebruikers zijn waarschijnlijk al aan het Engels gewend.
Extra reden om NL toch te houden/uit te breiden is misschien dat het laagdrempeliger kan worden voor nieuwe/jongere instappers.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: JanRoza on June 13, 2017, 09:51:59 pm
Quote
Bestaande NL gebruikers zijn waarschijnlijk al aan het Engels gewend.
Extra reden om NL toch te houden/uit te breiden is misschien dat het laagdrempeliger kan worden voor nieuwe/jongere instappers.

I agree that could be a very good reason.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on June 13, 2017, 10:22:37 pm
Quote
Bestaande NL gebruikers zijn waarschijnlijk al aan het Engels gewend.
Extra reden om NL toch te houden/uit te breiden is misschien dat het laagdrempeliger kan worden voor nieuwe/jongere instappers.

I agree that could be a very good reason.
Onzin. Om de reden die ik al heb gegeven (mijn dochtertje, volgende week 9, 23 juni 2008- heeft al Engels en doet alles via Engelse menu's op tablet en computer ) en bovendien welke drempel dan? Als het gaat om nieuwe instappers die Nederlands op prijs stellen zullen het juist ouderen zijn..(En mijn moeder gebruikt D7 in het Engels en die wordt 87 dit jaar -11 september 1930. Geen grap: mijn moeder heeft ook al 25 jaar ervaring...Sommigen onder ons weten dat..)

In goed Nederlands: "It's a pointless exercise"
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: eny on June 15, 2017, 08:53:50 pm
Onzin. Om de reden die ik al heb gegeven (mijn dochtertje, volgende week 9, 23 juni 2008- heeft al Engels en doet alles via Engelse menu's op tablet en computer ) en bovendien welke drempel dan? Als het gaat om nieuwe instappers die Nederlands op prijs stellen zullen het juist ouderen zijn..(En mijn moeder gebruikt D7 in het Engels en die wordt 87 dit jaar -11 september 1930. Geen grap: mijn moeder heeft ook al 25 jaar ervaring...Sommigen onder ons weten dat..)

In goed Nederlands: "It's a pointless exercise"
Vrij land; ieder zijn mening. Hoe subjectief en bevooroordeeld of gekleurd dan ook.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on June 15, 2017, 09:48:46 pm
Vrij land; ieder zijn mening. Hoe subjectief en bevooroordeeld of gekleurd dan ook.
Mijn mening is niet zo gekleurd als je denkt..., gezien de huidige Poll, maar helemaal mee eens..

Waar ik meer benieuwd naar ben - als politicoloog, want dat ben ik ook nog steeds - is de zwijgende meerderheid en of die bestaat in het geval van dit onderwerp?
Lastig meten, hoor... O:-)
Zoals ik het nu lees is er een (1) persoon die altijd Nederlands gebruikt. Een(1) waarbij dat toevallig zo gelopen is en 3 die het gebruiken om de Nederlandse taal te ondersteunen.
Dat maakt dus een (1) persoon die het bewust gebruikt als standaard van op het moment van schrijven 26 stemmen. Dat is ~ 3.8% versus 96.2%.
Als je statistiek gelooft op basis van deze poll zijn er dus drie (3) ontwikkelaars bezig om een (1) persoon daadwerkelijk te ondersteunen....
Het gemiddelde van FPC of Lazarus core ontwikkelaars versus gebruikers is eerder 1 ontwikkelaar per 50.000 gebruikers....
Ken er een waarde aan toe en dan is het dus 1/(150.000 x aantal core ontwikkelaars). Voorbeeld ter interpretatie: Microsoft doet het er voor, dus dat zegt ook niet zoveel.... Probleemis mensen die het willen doen voor zo weinig echte gebruikers. Maar de fout marge is hier ook heel groot. Daarom: hoe meten we de zwijgende meerderheid?
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: marcov on June 15, 2017, 10:19:47 pm
Dus resumerend:


De vraag is dan hoe je dit kombineert, een potentiele markt identificeren is makkelijk, maar hoe ga je het daar aan de man brengen, en de investeringen (lees: de vertaling afmaken) daar voor regelen?
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on June 15, 2017, 10:30:08 pm
Ik wil daar aan toevoegen dat er bijzonder weinig IDE's zijn voor welke programmeertaal ook, die Nederlands ondersteunen. Als ze het al doen is het net zo slecht als Lazarus nu.
Reguliere programmeurs. amateur of professional,  programmeren nu eenmaal liever in het Engels. Psychologisch is het ook niet goed om steeds te moeten switchen in je hersens voor iets wat Engels is en dan een menu structuur die in een andere taal is.
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: scons on July 21, 2017, 08:34:00 pm
+1 gebruiker die Lazarus gebruikt in de EN versie
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Edwin Martens on August 28, 2019, 09:14:22 am
My God,
Translating a programming language is like the software equivalent of english movies on a german tv channel.... :o %)
( and every dutchman knows what I'm talking about)
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on August 28, 2019, 10:21:33 am
This is an old poll, but your comparison makes me smile. Just back from France and there it compares even better, as it does in Russia...
The results - I understand the poll is still open? - are such that what I - and others - wrote 2 years ago still holds true: very, very few users - and none of the professionals - would use the translation.
What the poll tells us is that there are 50% more people involved in maintaining it in some way or another than there are actual users.
Another comparison is from Greek mythology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

(but note the response is too low to actually draw any statistical conclusion)
Title: Re: Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Bart on August 28, 2019, 01:56:49 pm
I understand the poll is still open?

I closed it.

Bart
Title: Re: [Closed] Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on August 28, 2019, 05:28:20 pm
Tnx. :D

New feature: Dutch language support is dropped on request of the Dutch...... :P :-X :D ;) O:-)
Title: Re: [Closed] Poll: Usage of Dutch translation for IDE
Post by: Thaddy on August 28, 2019, 05:38:56 pm
Tnx. :D

New feature: Dutch language support is dropped on request of the Dutch...... :P :-X :D ;) O:-)
Dutch is the major language between Germany and Britain anyway.
TinyPortal © 2005-2018