Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?

[Thaddy]

Actually what I want is that people start PROGRAMMING and be proficient at it. The language itself doesn't really matter.
A real programmer does not care.....AT ALL.

[marcov]

Alternatively: How about dealing with the idiosyncrasies of installing by making sure we are well represented by homebrew, https://chocolatey.org/, and the equivalent for linux ?

Chocolatey says it works with MSI and innosetup, and our installer is innosetup (with beta MSIs being made too)

I know Lazarus itself installs like magic under Win7.  I also know Lazarus installation under Mac is a nightmare and, to this date, I can get it to install ... but not compile ... (Before High Sierra I couldn't get it to install.  Under High Sierra I can now get the IDE to come up and appear to run -- but then choke when I try to compile.)

I think the main reason is that Windows is relatively invariant. Yes, sometimes it does break (like with Windows Vista and UAC), but relatively rarely. Effort put into getting releases nice pays off longer.

Anyway, what do you guys think about recommending working THROUGH leading software managers (brew, chocolatey, etc)?  Wouldn't that be easier on both the forum support and the install experience of new users?

Personally I don't see the point of 3rd party installation tools on Windows. They have near zero installed base, and there are  no real problems to solve to begin with. IMHO the situation can only get worse (version in 3rd party tool lagging, support issues etc)

Under Mac, I've got to say, brew is almost always the easiest way to handle anything beyond a trivial install...and even then it helps keep the versions syncopated with the various "gotchas".

I get the impression (as somebody who hasn't touch Macs in years) that Mac is so problematic because the dependencies are twofold. (1) OS  and its versioning (2) Xcode and its versioning.

[Thaddy]

@Marco, if you mean me that is false. I just do not use it very often. Still a nice TOY.

[Phil]

I know Lazarus itself installs like magic under Win7.  I also know Lazarus installation under Mac is a nightmare and, to this date, I can get it to install ... but not compile ... (Before High Sierra I couldn't get it to install.  Under High Sierra I can now get the IDE to come up and appear to run -- but then choke when I try to compile.)

Vague. Maybe you didn't install the Xcode command line tools?

Both FPC and Lazarus are pretty straightforward to install and run on macOS. The debugger is tricky since Lazarus uses gdb, which is not the debugger on macOS, so gdb has to be installed from 3rd party. However, you can compile and run in Lazarus without the debugger, then debug as needed from the command line using the Xcode lldb debugger.

The problem that Lazarus faces at the moment on macOS is that it's currently a 32-bit app and macOS is going to be 64-bit only pretty soon.

[tan]

There's a lot of documentation on working with databases on FPC. I also know a beginner who doesn't understand any of the language are 'drowning in the flow *'. That's why I'm creating a document 'How to work with SQLdb and SQLlite step by step'. Unforunally I'll try to find the time to finished it. It's for an article in Blaize Pascal Magaine.

But your problem is not only on SQL. For all new things you have to make time to find out how it works. I still want to find out how TIOPF and Mormot works on my way to understand. For these tools there's a lot of examples or documentation. But trying it self in an own application is very tuff as beginner.

For all these things there is one special word for it: TIME!!!!

Any chance you would/could post what you have so far (or would that interfere with the Blaize article)?


Personally, I'm probably a little ADHD ... although I think the ballooning complexity and endless faux "choices" of the internet have really injured my ability to simply concentrate on what is in front of me.  In addition, my life and responsibilities have become pretty complicated, although that is mainly - but not entirely -  by my own choices.

Where that ties in to Laz is one of my businesses relies foundationally on Windows and a large, customized C# application which was poorly factored (I didn't micomanage/oversee it carefully in development) and now I've either got to maintain it or rewrite it. Given the original developer died and Windows/C#/Microsoft's path makes me nauseated, I have to consider having it rewritten for the LAST time. That is where Lazarus and Postgres and Linux come in for me.  I did a lot of coding in Turbo Pascal and quite a bit with C under Unix a long time ago, so I've got a vested interest in seeing Lazarus move forward, even though I am not a software developer any more.  Just thought I would explain my motivations with regard to Lazarus.  It seems to me, Lazarus COULD dominate enterprise software development on Linux the way C# has a firm grip on Windows.  Maybe I am wrong about that, but I don't see much real competition in the Linux/DB/Enterprise sphere.

[Thaddy]

It is also a bit of the pain lower back of my body....

[Phil]

It seems to me, Lazarus COULD dominate enterprise software development on Linux the way C# has a firm grip on Windows.  Maybe I am wrong about that, but I don't see much real competition in the Linux/DB/Enterprise sphere.

Is enterprise software on Linux even a thing?

I sympathize with your dilemma. In the short term, if you haven't already done this, I would find one or two contract shops that do quite a bit of C# work and have them give you an analysis/estimate for updating your app. These services are generally not very expensive and they'll usually waive the cost if you subsequently have them do the work.

As for Lazarus being the solution to your problem, let me see if I understand what you're thinking: By encouraging new users, hopefully experienced DB programmers from other languages, to come to Lazarus, you'll have more people to draw on to fix your app? Something like that?

[marcov]

@Marco, if you mean me that is false. I just do not use it very often. Still a nice TOY.

???

[tan]

I know Lazarus itself installs like magic under Win7.  I also know Lazarus installation under Mac is a nightmare and, to this date, I can get it to install ... but not compile ... (Before High Sierra I couldn't get it to install.  Under High Sierra I can now get the IDE to come up and appear to run -- but then choke when I try to compile.)

Vague. Maybe you didn't install the Xcode command line tools?


Both FPC and Lazarus are pretty straightforward to install and run on macOS. The debugger is tricky since Lazarus uses gdb, which is not the debugger on macOS, so gdb has to be installed from 3rd party. However, you can compile and run in Lazarus without the debugger, then debug as needed from the command line using the Xcode lldb debugger.

The problem that Lazarus faces at the moment on macOS is that it's currently a 32-bit app and macOS is going to be 64-bit only pretty soon.

--
No, actually I did. I picked to upgrade to 10.13.3 *specifically* in the hope I might get Laz to install.  I think it was I had tried for hours to get a previous version of Lazarus to install and run under Sierra (I avoided trying earlier versions of Sierra because, as I recall, there was quite a mess with it "not being ready for prime time"/ security, etc.

As I recall, I noticed homebrew/cask/lazarus and entrusted the install to brew. It, in turn (it is generally wonderful in this regard, which I why I am suggesting we work closely WITH the leading software install/upgrade managers under the various platforms) took care of identifying my need to update Xcode.  And it identified the need for GDB and took care of that, too, if I recall (or possibly I started with using brew to install GDB or Xcode first...it is lost in the history of time and complexity and becoming "the tool of my tools",  I confess.

Anyway, the install went like magic compared to earlier attempts to get Lazarus running under an earlier version of MacOS.  After that and when homebrew was done I tried Lazarus, with a lot of trepidation and not really expecting it to work. 

I was kind of ecstatic when it came up to the IDE perfectly.  And I thought "happy days!"  And so I started typing in a super simple IDE based program through the form designer.   And that went well.

And then I tried to compile and it crapped out with multiple error messages pointing to graphics incompatibilities (cocoa oriented if I recall). And THAT was where I found out Apple had changed graphics support...and Lazarus specifically said it cut off MacOs support at 10.12.

And I posted for any help here. And I got one lead but it was over my head.

And I gave up.

What I don't think most "modern" software developers realize is that there was a day when software JUST WORKED.  It might have a bug, but most of the bugs were not fatal and could be worked around.  Borland aka Turbo Pascal was one of the leaders of the JUST WORK movement -- actually Borland software went way beyond "just work" which is why they were able to steal Microsoft's thunder.

But Microsoft was a sneaky bastard of a competitor...and Apple and Google and eventually pretty near everyone else (specifically Google) adopted their playbook of stacking complexity upon complexity and "upgrade" hell.  That is how they came to own us. Well, most of us! Lazarus team is obviously like Neo or maybe Luke in the unfolding plot. Or so I hope! :-)

Anyway, I can get you specific error codes if that would help. Or I can just bide my time until, hopefully, the Lazarus development team gets around to adapting to Apple's upgrade path?  Whatever you suggest. It would be nice to have my Mac Air working with Lazarus as that would dramatically increase my exposure to the IDE learning curve ... which in the longer run would probably increase my investment of time and eventually money in Lazarus.

Or I can wait, as my real plan is to shift my business to Linux out of Windows (I'll go wherever you think Laz + SQLite/Postgres is best supported and strategic, I expect).

[Phil]

And then I tried to compile and it crapped out with multiple error messages pointing to graphics incompatibilities (cocoa oriented if I recall). And THAT was where I found out Apple had changed graphics support...and Lazarus specifically said it cut off MacOs support at 10.12.

That does not sound familiar at all. Can you point to your post and I'll review.

Not clear, but sounds like you used Homebrew to install everything? Maybe it borked the install.

Basic instructions have always worked for me: Install the 3 Lazarus packages from the Lazarus download site. Make sure you have Xcode command line tools installed. That's all for basic functionality.

Apple is the only company that really focuses on "just works". Consider that Xcode can be installed from the App Store. And uninstalling only requires dragging Xcode.app from Applications to the trash.

Lazarus is slightly more complicated to install, but not much.

[tan]

It seems to me, Lazarus COULD dominate enterprise software development on Linux the way C# has a firm grip on Windows.  Maybe I am wrong about that, but I don't see much real competition in the Linux/DB/Enterprise sphere.

Is enterprise software on Linux even a thing?

I sympathize with your dilemma. In the short term, if you haven't already done this, I would find one or two contract shops that do quite a bit of C# work and have them give you an analysis/estimate for updating your app. These services are generally not very expensive and they'll usually waive the cost if you subsequently have them do the work.

As for Lazarus being the solution to your problem, let me see if I understand what you're thinking: By encouraging new users, hopefully experienced DB programmers from other languages, to come to Lazarus, you'll have more people to draw on to fix your app? Something like that?

Oh my gosh!  I would LOVE to take you and the rest of the Lazarus team out for a beer or coffee or whatever and have a LONG talk on strategy!


"The cloud" is the Emperor's Newest set of "New clothes".  He's even, fundamentally, more naked than last time.  And, just like last time, he doesn't completely realize that yet. 

Warren Buffett: "It is only when the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked".

It doesn't mean the internet/cloud doesn't have it's uses, it is a great way to manage and sheer the sheeple.

But enterprise software definitely does not -- and will NEVER, as in never ever until the end of eternity -- belong on "the cloud". Rather than debate it I will merely say two things:  (1) Everything is Broken (https://medium.com/message/everything-is-broken-81e5f33a24e1)   (2) Everything put on the internet is not protected the Bill of Rights and is "open source" to the government and the IRS.

It is idiotic, beyond debate, for any enterprise to entrust their accounting and mission-critical data to the "cloud".  Anyone who tries to debate pro is, out of the gate, really making the case that they are either incompetent or compromised.

Windows has made unequivocal, they are part of "the cloud" contingent and their customers  -ipso facto -have no rights of privacy.

And if you disagree, you can argue with the US government.

So Linux will be the last redoubt short of going back to pen and paper accounting, which is where I draw the line.

Linux/Postgres  IS the great opportunity for Lazarus (or whoever gets their 'firstest and bestest').

Look: EVERYTHING POSTED ON THE CLOUD IS AN OPEN BOOK.  Even if you get past the endless exploits and

[Phil]

But enterprise software definitely does not -- and will NEVER, as in never ever until the end of eternity -- belong on "the cloud".

I didn't say anything about the cloud. I'm just questioning how much enterprise software there is on Linux. Maybe some that runs on Linux servers in, oops, the cloud.

Have you tried compiling your C# app against Mono? Just to see what the challenges. I assume your app is written against WinForms. That's really a Windows-only UI framework, although Mono for many years tried to support it, although always imperfectly. However, for a first cut, that doesn't matter.

If you have a Mac, just install MS's free Visual Studio for Mac, open your C# solution and see what happens.

Or even just try running your app with Mono on Linux. Since .NET/Mono assemblies are not tied to native code, it might actually run, sort of.

[tan]

And then I tried to compile and it crapped out with multiple error messages pointing to graphics incompatibilities (cocoa oriented if I recall). And THAT was where I found out Apple had changed graphics support...and Lazarus specifically said it cut off MacOs support at 10.12.

That does not sound familiar at all. Can you point to your post and I'll review....

Thanks Phil; I really appreciate the offer to look at it.    I will hunt what previously posted and try to dig a little deeper over the weekend.  I likely did just go with brew defaults; the time before I tried to do a 'normal' download and install from sourceforge, as I recall, and NOTHING went well.

[Fred vS]

you need to install the "dev" package.

"dev" packages should **NOT** be used by fpc.
https://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=32367

[mischi]

Anyway, what do you guys think about recommending working THROUGH leading software managers (brew, chocolatey, etc)?  Wouldn't that be easier on both the forum support and the install experience of new users?

Under Mac, I've got to say, brew is almost always the easiest way to handle anything beyond a trivial install...and even then it helps keep the versions syncopated with the various "gotchas".

I always prefer fink over brew because of the separation from the system and the higher quality of the package descriptions. Fink has nice package descriptions for lazarus and freepascal. Have a try and report problems. I am ready to fix the descriptions. If you really want brew, you can always take the package descriptions for fink and create corresponding brew formulas.