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Author Topic: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?  (Read 3866 times)

tan

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2018, 05:18:43 pm »
really? that is your major insite please make lazarus easier for sql databases? You compare a full blown visual designer that helps you visually place eachand every field in the expected position to what? ....

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.  If you search through the database forum here, or search the internet for variations on "how to connect Lazarus to SQL" you will see a lot of variations on a couple of themes: (1) new users having disproportionate recurring trouble with the same issues and (2) documentation which is either incomplete or out of date or which takes large leaps in assuming new users are more sophisticated than perhaps they are.  As a "hero" member, probably with vast experience, I am guessing you can't relate.  You don't need to relate: you need to OBSERVE WHAT REPEATS looking to triage investment in resources. 

I work re-engineering manufacturing and other business processes (look up "lean manufacturing" or "toyota production system"). I'm not much of a programmer, and I know very little about Lazarus compared to most around here.  What I am pretty good at is identifying where changes are going to be most profitable; what is the bottleneck/sticking point in a flow.

What I do know is Lazarus has huge potential but is not operating at its potential -- it is not catching on with new users and new companies as it, on the surface, should.  Why not?  What's the bottleneck?  With limited resources and an otherwise falling popularity, the Lazarus community can either defend what isn't working too well or can try to figure out what is slowing adoption the most and focus resources there.

What I already "know" isn't what I look for (that's mostly what I try to pretend I don't know so I can SEE what is otherwise likely invisible to me).  Put differently, I look for "mistakes" which repeats and is a limiting step.  A "mistake" which repeats isn't a mistake at all; it is a bad habit AND commonly a point of disproportionate leverage for productivity improvement.

Lazarus' strengths vs Python (and really just about everything else) can be leveraged to grow most effectively by identifying and prioritizing sticking points and focusing on addressing them.

Imagine a Lazarus where a new user or a CEO -- say a person who is pretty bright but has maybe no programming experience -- is going to be taken through a tutorial showing Laz main strengths vs the top five programming languages (since that is the 20% that produces at least 80% of all programming investment).

What will trip up that new user?  WATCH.  Streamline THAT bottleneck or address THAT need.  REPEAT.  That is the basic improvement loop which took Toyota from a nothing company producing -- I think it was textiles -- using antiquated processes and equipment in a bombed-out medieval country to the dynamo of excellence you see today.

Thankfully, Laz doesn't need any super abstract new features. It needs to clean up a little bit what it already has -- to remove the maybe 1% of sticking points which are producing virtually all of the resistance to reaching its potential.  And, yes, that means concentrating on new user adoption streamlining.

Laz is revolutionary, still, in its drag-n-drop IDE; its full database-widget integration; its RAD features for desktop development of business software; its being cross platform to Linux, in particular.

Make THAT the obsessive focus for the next few years of the core team and community and it seems reasonable/rational that disproportionate productivity (measured by adoption) will result which will look like a "miracle" to some.

That is what Borland did in the beginning. Go back to a winning strategy.

----
Look, the last thing I want to to is antagonize you as a "hero" member.  You guys have it all over me in terms of technical knowledge in programming, I'm sure.  But I admit I am trying to be provocative. Making a suggestion that nobody paid any attention to didn't seem like a good use of my time. Trying to get those leading Lazarus to see things from a different perspective did seem like a good use of my time.  The database integration is, like, 99.9% there.  The Linux integration likewise. Cross the damn finish line in style and claim your victory; the applause you guys deserve will come.

taazz

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2018, 05:42:10 pm »
really? that is your major insite please make lazarus easier for sql databases? You compare a full blown visual designer that helps you visually place eachand every field in the expected position to what? ....

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.  If you search through the database forum here, or search the internet for variations on "how to connect Lazarus to SQL" you will see a lot of variations on a couple of themes: (1) new users having disproportionate recurring trouble with the same issues and (2) documentation which is either incomplete or out of date or which takes large leaps in assuming new users are more sophisticated than perhaps they are.  As a "hero" member, probably with vast experience, I am guessing you can't relate.  You don't need to relate: you need to OBSERVE WHAT REPEATS looking to triage investment in resources. 

I work re-engineering manufacturing and other business processes (look up "lean manufacturing" or "toyota production system"). I'm not much of a programmer, and I know very little about Lazarus compared to most around here.  What I am pretty good at is identifying where changes are going to be most profitable; what is the bottleneck/sticking point in a flow.

What I do know is Lazarus has huge potential but is not operating at its potential -- it is not catching on with new users and new companies as it, on the surface, should.  Why not?  What's the bottleneck?  With limited resources and an otherwise falling popularity, the Lazarus community can either defend what isn't working too well or can try to figure out what is slowing adoption the most and focus resources there.

What I already "know" isn't what I look for (that's mostly what I try to pretend I don't know so I can SEE what is otherwise likely invisible to me).  Put differently, I look for "mistakes" which repeats and is a limiting step.  A "mistake" which repeats isn't a mistake at all; it is a bad habit AND commonly a point of disproportionate leverage for productivity improvement.

Lazarus' strengths vs Python (and really just about everything else) can be leveraged to grow most effectively by identifying and prioritizing sticking points and focusing on addressing them.

Imagine a Lazarus where a new user or a CEO -- say a person who is pretty bright but has maybe no programming experience -- is going to be taken through a tutorial showing Laz main strengths vs the top five programming languages (since that is the 20% that produces at least 80% of all programming investment).

What will trip up that new user?  WATCH.  Streamline THAT bottleneck or address THAT need.  REPEAT.  That is the basic improvement loop which took Toyota from a nothing company producing -- I think it was textiles -- using antiquated processes and equipment in a bombed-out medieval country to the dynamo of excellence you see today.

Thankfully, Laz doesn't need any super abstract new features. It needs to clean up a little bit what it already has -- to remove the maybe 1% of sticking points which are producing virtually all of the resistance to reaching its potential.  And, yes, that means concentrating on new user adoption streamlining.

Laz is revolutionary, still, in its drag-n-drop IDE; its full database-widget integration; its RAD features for desktop development of business software; its being cross platform to Linux, in particular.

Make THAT the obsessive focus for the next few years of the core team and community and it seems reasonable/rational that disproportionate productivity (measured by adoption) will result which will look like a "miracle" to some.

That is what Borland did in the beginning. Go back to a winning strategy.

----
Look, the last thing I want to to is antagonize you as a "hero" member.  You guys have it all over me in terms of technical knowledge in programming, I'm sure.  But I admit I am trying to be provocative. Making a suggestion that nobody paid any attention to didn't seem like a good use of my time. Trying to get those leading Lazarus to see things from a different perspective did seem like a good use of my time.  The database integration is, like, 99.9% there.  The Linux integration likewise. Cross the damn finish line in style and claim your victory; the applause you guys deserve will come.
ok lets assume you are right. You claim that you took a look on the data and based on your experience and knowledge you came to that conclusion. I'd very much like to see it my self too. Please provide the following
1) existing data you collected
2) sources of the data.3) methodology of collection.4) if there is any software/bot that was used to collect the data I would be more than interested to see (or use).I'm a programmer not an analyst so telling me what to look for is not very helpful I'm not interested in learning how you do your job. I will appreciate any sort of analysis though with the data, its impossible for me to identify any specific problems with out data.
Good judgement is the result of experience … Experience is the result of bad judgement.

OS : Windows 7 64 bit
Laz: Lazarus 1.4.4 FPC 2.6.4 i386-win32-win32/win64

Thaddy

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2018, 05:53:48 pm »
3) where's the two way sync between user interface and code?

As shown before, there's hardly any difference in WRITING the code, but with Python you rely on some weird god that does that for you? Much easier to crash that....<slightly grumpy  >:D>
I am enjoining wine, not whine....

marcov

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2018, 06:03:46 pm »
Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.  If you search through the database forum here, or search the internet for variations on "how to connect Lazarus to SQL" you will see a lot of variations on a couple of themes: (1) new users having disproportionate recurring trouble with the same issues and (2) documentation which is either incomplete or out of date or which takes large leaps in assuming new users are more sophisticated than perhaps they are.  As a "hero" member, probably with vast experience, I am guessing you can't relate.  You don't need to relate: you need to OBSERVE WHAT REPEATS looking to triage investment in resources. 

Words like disproportionate are horribly subjective. Nevertheless, that there is a lot that can be done to lower the barrier of entry for newbies should not come as a surprise. However this has been known for decades, just what to compare with changes to the flavour of the day.

The problem is that nobody seems to want to work on it (remember: purely volunteer driven), and efforts to scale up are slow, and not yet ready to pay people to do such work. Most of our budget is payed for by Core members with occasional gifts.  Remember, we don't have a major US IT giant backer, like most of the scripting languages (Ruby/Perl/Python) and other languages (Java, .NET).

Comparing us to such projects is therefore not productive.

Quote
I work re-engineering manufacturing and other business processes (look up "lean manufacturing" or "toyota production system"). I'm not much of a programmer, and I know very little about Lazarus compared to most around here.  What I am pretty good at is identifying where changes are going to be most profitable; what is the bottleneck/sticking point in a flow.

That is kicking in an open door. We get tens of such inflammatory posts a year. Some documentation, some obsess just over linecount, some about some target that is behind the norm (like Lazarus on OS X)

It is easy to find flaws. It is harder to pinpoint origins, do it based on proper comparisons (not comparing multinationals to 10 headcount volunteer projects) and, most importantly, to plot a workable, realistic course to improve the situation

Quote
What I do know is Lazarus has huge potential but is not operating at its potential -- it is not catching on with new users and new companies as it, on the surface, should.  Why not? 

Maybe the question is what exact you compare with, and what those did to come ahead. And I bet you it is a major backer early on in the development history, or some distro that ordains it to the scripting language of the future (which is often the same thing, since Redhat and Ubuntu are also multinationals)

Quote
What's the bottleneck?  With limited resources

CORRECT! Limited resources.

Quote
and an otherwise falling popularity, the Lazarus community can either defend what isn't working too well or can try to figure out what is slowing adoption the most and focus resources there.

This is incorrect. Lazarus is still rising and getting used more. Forum activity and downloads are at all time heights. It just doesn't grow exponentionally and doesn't make the headlines.

Quote
What I already "know" isn't what I look for (that's mostly what I try to pretend I don't know so I can SEE what is otherwise likely invisible to me).  Put differently, I look for "mistakes" which repeats and is a limiting step.  A "mistake" which repeats isn't a mistake at all; it is a bad habit AND commonly a point of disproportionate leverage for productivity improvement.

So please document all those mistakes that you found while starting thoroughly, so that the next doesn't run into it. Coordinate with other people going through the same process to give it some structure.

Quote
Imagine a Lazarus where a new user or a CEO -- say a person who is pretty bright but has maybe no programming experience -- is going to be taken through a tutorial showing Laz main strengths vs the top five programming languages (since that is the 20% that produces at least 80% of all programming investment).

We can grow a factor 50 and still not make that cut. We are not regularly featured in corporate magazines, and we have no big corporate showcase. Even Delphi struggles with that, and Embarcadero is a multimillion company. We have single thousands annual budget.

Quote
What will trip up that new user?  WATCH.  Streamline THAT bottleneck or address THAT need.  REPEAT.  That is the basic improvement loop which took Toyota from a nothing company producing -- I think it was textiles -- using antiquated processes and equipment in a bombed-out medieval country to the dynamo of excellence you see today.

Please DO! Just start a wiki and start collecting and organizing stuff. We need people to do things, not write long mails about what is wrong.

And keep in mind that any tool has black holes, as this discussion already demonstrated.  A whine report about python GUIs on Windows 5 years ago is still relevant.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 06:25:59 pm by marcov »

Thaddy

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2018, 06:13:42 pm »
To summarize this: If England can win on penalties.... :) :D 8-) O:-)
I am enjoining wine, not whine....

tan

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2018, 08:06:01 pm »
Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting....

Words like disproportionate are horribly subjective. Nevertheless, that there is a lot that can be done to lower the barrier of entry for newbies should not come as a surprise. However this has been known for decades, just what to compare with changes to the flavour of the day.

The problem is that nobody seems to want to work on it (remember: purely volunteer driven), and efforts to scale up are slow, and not yet ready to pay people to do such work. Most of our budget is payed for by Core members with occasional gifts.  Remember, we don't have a major US IT giant backer, like most of the scripting languages (Ruby/Perl/Python) and other languages (Java, .NET).

Comparing us to such projects is therefore not productive.

Quote
I work re-engineering manufacturing and other business processes (look up "lean manufacturing" or "toyota production system"). I'm not much of a programmer, and I know very little about Lazarus compared to most around here.  What I am pretty good at is identifying where changes are going to be most profitable; what is the bottleneck/sticking point in a flow.

That is kicking in an open door. We get tens of such inflammatory posts a year. Some documentation, some obsess just over linecount, some about some target that is behind the norm (like Lazarus on OS X)

It is easy to find flaws. It is harder to pinpoint origins, do it based on proper comparisons (not comparing multinationals to 10 headcount volunteer projects) and, most importantly, to plot a workable, realistic course to improve the situation

Quote
What I do know is Lazarus has huge potential but is not operating at its potential -- it is not catching on with new users and new companies as it, on the surface, should.  Why not? 

Maybe the question is what exact you compare with, and what those did to come ahead. And I bet you it is a major backer early on in the development history, or some distro that ordains it to the scripting language of the future (which is often the same thing, since Redhat and Ubuntu are also multinationals)

Quote
What's the bottleneck?  With limited resources

CORRECT! Limited resources.

Quote
and an otherwise falling popularity, the Lazarus community can either defend what isn't working too well or can try to figure out what is slowing adoption the most and focus resources there.

This is incorrect. Lazarus is still rising and getting used more. Forum activity and downloads are at all time heights. It just doesn't grow exponentionally and doesn't make the headlines.

Quote
What I already "know" isn't what I look for (that's mostly what I try to pretend I don't know so I can SEE what is otherwise likely invisible to me).  Put differently, I look for "mistakes" which repeats and is a limiting step.  A "mistake" which repeats isn't a mistake at all; it is a bad habit AND commonly a point of disproportionate leverage for productivity improvement.

So please document all those mistakes that you found while starting thoroughly, so that the next doesn't run into it. Coordinate with other people going through the same process to give it some structure.

Quote
Imagine a Lazarus where a new user or a CEO -- say a person who is pretty bright but has maybe no programming experience -- is going to be taken through a tutorial showing Laz main strengths vs the top five programming languages (since that is the 20% that produces at least 80% of all programming investment).

We can grow a factor 50 and still not make that cut. We are not regularly featured in corporate magazines, and we have no big corporate showcase. Even Delphi struggles with that, and Embarcadero is a multimillion company. We have single thousands annual budget.

Quote
What will trip up that new user?  WATCH.  Streamline THAT bottleneck or address THAT need.  REPEAT.  That is the basic improvement loop which took Toyota from a nothing company producing -- I think it was textiles -- using antiquated processes and equipment in a bombed-out medieval country to the dynamo of excellence you see today.

Please DO! Just start a wiki and start collecting and organizing stuff. We need people to do things, not write long mails about what is wrong.

And keep in mind that any tool has black holes, as this discussion already demonstrated.  A whine report about python GUIs on Windows 5 years ago is still relevant.

Hi, Marcov.   

Although my subject line was admittedly provocative (partially due to the need to be concise) I wasn't trying to say FP/Lazarus was falling in net users.  I WAS trying to say that, in the bigger picture, the ObjectPascal/ Delphi train, as a whole, is slowing down and arguably about to drop through the fairly strategic number of 20.  I was explicit that this is probably Delphi falling in relevance and that the Lazarus developers have done an incredible job (beyond incredible, really) in bootstrapping with very limited resources.

Metaphorically: Object Pascal is caught in a strong tide rapidly pulling out into a vast sea and FP/Lazarus is a rather small boat caught in that tide without adequate fuel to simply power its way through to the shore.  Tacking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing)) and matching targets with resources is obviously wise.  I can appreciate the problem, having been in analogous situations in other contexts.

I don't like making criticisms which are not constructive and, in particular, I don't like leading from the rear (telling other people to work harder when I am not willing to dig in and help pull the load); I'm pretty critical of folks who do that, in fact, so I appreciate your speaking up.

I would like to have a conversation with you, or with whomever you feel most appropriate, about how I can best contribute in line with my own limitations, strengths, and interests.  I don't know what will come of that, but it doesn't hurt to talk a little.  My contribution likely comes down to some financial contribution and some management/oversight of a project (not personally programming).  I don't want to donate thousands of dollars and just hope it gets spent wisely.  My interests are, specifically, improving the user experience -- particularly the new user experience.  I think that means improving documentation or working to expand and update tutorials.  However, it might mean funding some further development of the widget-SQL connection.  Further, I would like to most-specifically focus on on SQL (let's say SQLite3 and Postgres) AND LINUX (let's say Ubuntu or Mint to start with and maybe RedHat/Fedora later on).

Do you know of a core developer who is particularly interested in improving the SQL and Linux integration experience who might be willing to Facetime or otherwise conference with me a little to see if we can find common interest and reasonable path forward?  I'm not going to commit to throw too much time nor money at this right now, but I am interested in improving the situation; and I suspect it can be improved substantially with relatively little additional work if resources are specifically targeted and managed.  You guys are obviously quite serious and capable or Lazarus wouldn't be where it is already.  I think that's a great start.  You guys have clearly bootstrapped something huge and polished out of limited resources; that's incredibly admirable and in line with the way I usually like to do things (lean).


Martin_fr

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2018, 08:25:27 pm »
  I WAS trying to say that, in the bigger picture, the ObjectPascal/ Delphi train, as a whole, is slowing down and arguably about to drop through the fairly strategic number of 20

The short time figures on top of tiobe are meaningless. They change according to short time events (a press release, a leak, a company takeover ... stuff that last a few weeks and then is forgotten)

Scroll down to the "Very Long Term History":
Quote from: www.tiobe.com
Programming Language   2018   2013   2008   2003   1998   1993   1988
Delphi/Object Pascal   10     12     10     9     -       -     -

Pretty stable, maybe even on the rebound...


Quote from: tan
My contribution likely comes down to some financial contribution and some management/oversight of a project (not personally programming).  I don't want to donate thousands of dollars and just hope it gets spent wisely.  My interests are, specifically, improving the user experience -- particularly the new user experience.  I think that means improving documentation or working to expand and update tutorials.  However, it might mean funding some further development of the widget-SQL connection.  Further, I would like to most-specifically focus on on SQL (let's say SQLite3 and Postgres) AND LINUX (let's say Ubuntu or Mint to start with and maybe RedHat/Fedora later on).

You can always place a bounty. (Or offer a job)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 08:30:09 pm by Martin_fr »

Handoko

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2018, 08:50:23 pm »
... how I can best contribute in line with my own limitations, strengths, and interests.

Glad to hear you're willing to spend some of your time to make Lazarus/FPC better.

If you're good in words, you can help to make the wiki/documentation/tutorials better. Many of the information there are outdated, not well-organized and contain dead links. It is an enormous task, but we really need someone to do it.
http://wiki.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Documentation
http://wiki.freepascal.org/Category:Tutorials
https://freepascal.org/docs-html/current/ref/ref.html

If you're good in codes, you can help fixing bugs. Visit the bugtracker forum, there you can see hundreds of bugs are waiting to be fixed. But if you're not interested in bugfixing, maybe you can try to write some new features for the IDE or the compiler.
https://bugs.freepascal.org/view_all_bug_page.php
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Roadmap

If you're knowledgeable in programming especially Pascal programming, please visit this forum regularly and share your knowledge with newbies.

If you have some money to spend, please consider to make bounties.
http://wiki.freepascal.org/Bounties
https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/board,41.0.html

marcov

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2018, 08:54:33 pm »
Although my subject line was admittedly provocative (partially due to the need to be concise) I wasn't trying to say FP/Lazarus was falling in net users.  I WAS trying to say that, in the bigger picture, the ObjectPascal/ Delphi train, as a whole, is slowing down and arguably about to drop through the fairly strategic number of 20.  I was explicit that this is probably Delphi falling in relevance and that the Lazarus developers have done an incredible job (beyond incredible, really) in bootstrapping with very limited resources.

Metaphorically: Object Pascal is caught in a strong tide rapidly pulling out into a vast sea and FP/Lazarus is a rather small boat caught in that tide without adequate fuel to simply power its way through to the shore. 

Yes, in it has that way and has repeatedly been declared dead since the early 2000s (e.g. when Java or .NET started). I still consider those larger threats than something as ackward as Python.

Anyway, I think you put too much stock in TIOBE. It is a popularity contest with constantly varying rules.

Quote
I would like to have a conversation with you, or with whomever you feel most appropriate, about how I can best contribute in line with my own limitations, strengths, and interests.

Well, that's what this forum is for. We currently don't offer 1:1 coaching or buddy programs, because as said we all have day jobs (and often families), but if you have questions or partial things to checkout, just post them here.

Donations are channeled via the foundation

But in general it all starts with being a responsible user. Document what you find out, and once in a while convert some unit test or other demonstrative piece of code to a real showpiece/example.

Often people that try to improve certain parts of the project use these scattered piece as input.

That said, Postgresql servers on Linux are pretty much the norm in Lazarus professional use. At least one core member of FPC, and one of Lazarus has that as core business.

tan

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2018, 11:28:02 pm »
Thanks for all the time the community has given to this thread.  I would like to transition to doing something specific about the specifics I mentioned: (1) documenting or actually improving the ease of average users getting started (2) with SQLite3 and (3) Linux. 

I will need guidance.   

It was mentioned there are a few people in the development team who might have a corresponding interest and work professionally as programmers?  Who are they or how may I get in touch with them? 

As a first step, I am thinking I could hire one of them as a consultant to help get SQLite3 working under Ubuntu (or Mint) Linux for my my company (so hiring them would be a legitimate expense for my business) and then share the documented result with the community?  What do you guys think?

As a second step I'd like them to help me put together a complete/foolproof but simple tutorial on  how to then use Laz+SQLite3 under Ubuntu to make some sort of super-simple but extensible GUI-based database project.  I don't know, maybe a basic contact or project list? That, I am hoping, will really drive home in a few minutes WHY Lazarus and really hook some new users when it is published into the community and, ideally, Reddit.

If there is some technical reason why this is all much easier to do under Windows I will consider that as a first step, although I'd really like to make it work SIMPLY under Ubuntu/Mint and maybe MacOS, too.

Python is able to get running with SQLite3 so easily because, as I understand, it is bundled with Python after about 2.7.   Can it be bundled with Lazarus, by default, in the next release to achieve something similar? Why or why not?  Obviously, some people will want more than SQLite3 but can it be considered for just foundational, maybe with a super simple test database included, so the Laz SQLite3 widgets just work right out of the box?  Why or why not?

Is there another forum where you suggest I take this topic? If you just drop me with "just do it and get back to me" I can pretty much guarantee my offer to help won't go anywhere because I am already up to my eyeballs with responsibilities.  I am willing to take this on in addition to my normal responsibilities but I need one or more competent people to interact with me and help guide the project to a reasonable and useful completion. Again, I am NOT a programmer; I don't want to be a programmer again.  I just want to see Lazarus reach potential so I can use it within my businesses going forward and feel like I gave at least commensurate with what I was given in this world.

Some close guidance from here, to get me going, would be appreciated...and I think you will find it worth your investment of time in terms of advancing Lazarus.  Thanks.


Phil

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2018, 12:14:39 am »
Python is able to get running with SQLite3 so easily because, as I understand, it is bundled with Python after about 2.7.

That's true of Python 2.7 and 3.x only for Windows. macOS and iOS have always bundled libsqlite3.dylib - has nothing to do with Python. Linux typically also has, eg, a symlink like libsqlite3.so.0 pointing to the actual lib, but to program against it on, say, Ubuntu, you need to install the "dev" package. These things are probably best left to the distro's package manager, rather than trying to bundle and use the lib from a non-standard location.

Having said that, I don't believe making SQL connectivity easier would have much impact. Since the collapse of desktop app development, languages that traditionally have been associated with desktop app development, particularly on Windows, have declined a bit, as expected (Delphi, VB.NET, C#, VBA). Languages that are now associated with Web-based development (JavaScript, TypeScript) and so-called Big Data and data science develpment (Python, R, Matlab) have increased in usage, sometimes by quite a lot, all as expected. These trends are almost like continental drift: not much you can do to speed it up or slow it down.

dbannon

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2018, 01:18:46 am »
Honestly, I don't think Tan is Trolling. He is asking a valid and important question, why is [Delphi, ObjectPascal, Lazarus] dropping in popularity despite what we all know, Lazarus is superb !

Two explanations -
TIOBE - does it only count posts to its own family of services ?  Or favour its own ? Few Lazarus people post there because this Forum is so good !

Secondly, what Tan sees as a problem with dbase documentation is really a problem with overall FPC/Lazarus documentation. Really, the documentation is the weak link and one weak link will break the chain.

I personally have never contributed any documentation to FPC. Have done some wiki work but that does not end up in the help engine. But I constantly find things that I have to stop writing and go off searching in all odd corners trying to clarify.

We need to get more help in the source, but I don't understand the process. If someone could clearly outline the process to improve the source documentation so that it appears in popups in Lazarus editing window and the tool you get when you press F1 we all could help a lot.

There is also the "which Unit" problem, I know the method name I want to call but because it's Unit is not in my Uses clause, no help is available, and I don't know what unit to put in the uses clause !

Potential new users get frustrated, and wander away when they connot find easy answers.

Davo
Lazarus 1.8, Linux (and reluctantly Win10, OSX)

Phil

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2018, 01:26:58 am »
TIOBE - does it only count posts to its own family of services ?  Or favour its own ? Few Lazarus people post there because this Forum is so good !

Read the description of their methodology, which has nothing to do with what you suggest. That doesn't make it any less suspect, however.

I would look at something like this instead:

https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html

Ignore the absolute values and literal ranking numbers - just look at the trends (below in the graph, where you can compare languages and regions). The PYPL rankings are consistent with what I see around me: That is, I don't know any working programmer who is doing desktop app development, not even legacy app maintenance. Almost all use Python. Those who don't are doing mobile development, typically iOS, using Swift. Everyone uses AWS, etc.

Martin_fr

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2018, 01:36:52 am »
We need to get more help in the source, but I don't understand the process. If someone could clearly outline the process to improve the source documentation so that it appears in popups in Lazarus editing window and the tool you get when you press F1 we all could help a lot.
afaik...
Menu: View > FPDoc Editor

Browse the sources (LCL), when you visit a method in the interface part of a unit it will show you the existing doc and let you edit it.
The actual doc data is in xml files, in the docs/xml/lcl folder.

Start with a small sample and discuss your results early (ideally on the mail list / create a bugreport with your changes, and then ask on the list for review).
So you get early feedback on style and what else.

Quote
There is also the "which Unit" problem, I know the method name I want to call but because it's Unit is not in my Uses clause, no help is available, and I don't know what unit to put in the uses clause !

Install the package "Cody" (it is part of Lazarus).
Menu: Source > Show Unit / Identifier directory
type part of the name, and it will get you suggestions, and can add it together with the unit in the uses clause.

Assign a keycombo, and you can open it with the word at the caret.

tan

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Re: Is Lazarus Dying, in part, for Lack of Easy SQL Connectivity?
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2018, 03:27:14 am »
TIOBE - does it only count posts to its own family of services ?  Or favour its own ? Few Lazarus people post there because this Forum is so good !

...
I would look at something like this instead:
https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html
Ignore the absolute values and literal ranking numbers - just look at the trends (below in the graph, where you can compare languages and regions). The PYPL rankings are consistent with what I see around me: That is, I don't know any working programmer who is doing desktop app development, not even legacy app maintenance. Almost all use Python. Those who don't are doing mobile development, typically iOS, using Swift. Everyone uses AWS, etc.

Well that's interesting.  That's in alignment with what is being taught, as far as I can tell. Python in all the schools; Kotlin exploding up to eclipse Java sooner than some might think; Typescript...R.  I don't know how a business can take desktop/LAN applications into the wild (to be hacked). Or maybe there is just a funding freeze on desktop/LAN with companies thinking they need to put all their resources into the "cloud", for now, and just defer on mission critical stuff until later? Color me paranoid on this ending well....Kotlin, at least, can probably handle both domains pretty well.

 

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