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tr_escape

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2018, 03:23:58 pm »
Best learning method is asking, you have got .Net experience means you know programming methods.
Next step is creating a project with Lazarus. I used Delphi before and still supporting my old projects but also I created few projects by Lazarus/fpc too.

My first software with lazarus was a word memorizer nowdays I am creating test projects related my job.

There is no easy way but as you know "easy come easy go"

Trenatos

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2018, 04:24:47 pm »
I'm afraid nothing with the docs are going to change unless one of two things happen

* Someone with loads of experience with FPC/Lazarus decides to spend loads of time cleaning up the docs, or writing new ones.
* Someone gets paid, as their job, to do it.

The barrier to entry is really high as soon as you try to do anything complex or performance-oriented.

For example, I needed to create a REST API a while back, and had to go with my usual stack of OpenBD CFML instead of FPC because I couldn't find a decent database pooling library.

There are several examples of basic pools and shared resources, but I wasn't looking for something to learn from, I was looking for something to get a job done, something robust.

That's a common story with FPC I'm afraid.

Unless you've already spent lots of time learning the language and learned a good chunk of CS, you're not likely to find what you need that's fit for deployment.

Personally I think it's simply due to the non-corporate nature of support.

There are lots of hobbyists and professionals sharing things, but little in the way of serious man-hour projects.

Take the core phrase "Write once, compile anywhere", in reality most non-Windows targets are incomplete or require workarounds, making the statement just not true.

I like FPC, I like Lazarus, but it's hard justifying using it over CFML, Java, etc. due to the shortcomings for on-the-job deployments and projects.

I give up.

I did not ask for advice for reading.
I asked for the complete cleanup of all existing documentation in such a way that it becomes usable.

But i looks like nobody (wants) to understand.
I will live with this mess as everyone else does here - I won't bring it up anymore.

RAW

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2018, 12:21:17 am »
Quote
Where I found it:
1. Old Borland documentation (sorry, I am not going to dive into the compiler code to find out) - only have to hope that the FPC implementation is the same as it is not mentioned in the prog.pdf.
2. Don't know anymore - but on the Freepascal docs (internet) it is not mentioned that SetLength is ALWAYS returning a NEW dynamic array, even when you are thrinking the array it is copied.
3. Found it in the prog.pdf of FPC
This meant 3 days of reading and searching for all bits and pieces.
That doesn't sound like a programmer's way, better ask in the forum or use the direct source-code-way.
// No guessing anymore...


Quote
And the example projects; more than 70% does not have any description. So what is the intend of the example?
Experience comes from the game called TRIAL AND ERROR not from reading...


Quote
4. Place all information within one base url; whe have now 4 official links; fpc, lazarus, fpc/lazarus wiki and the forum.
Does it matter? You have to start somewhere even if all information would be placed on a single page...


Quote
These 5 points would be a good start - (almost) all information is there. But it is at this moment a hell of a job to find it.
I did not ask for advice for reading.
I asked for the complete cleanup of all existing documentation in such a way that it becomes usable.
Anything else ???
I guess for the most people this is working fine, otherwise they would use something else...
Is there a perfect documentation of the WIN API ???  I don't think so. I don't like it.
Are the docs for JAVA and .NET better? I don't know... I don't like to force a user to install a runtime engine that could lead to serious security-issues just to run my program.  >:(
Especially if the user don't need it for other programs...
Windows 7 Pro (x64 Sp1) & Windows XP Pro (x86 Sp3).

PascalDragon

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2018, 12:19:31 pm »
Is there a perfect documentation of the WIN API ???  I don't think so. I don't like it.

To be fair, MSDN comes rather close to that...

Trenatos

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2018, 07:45:18 pm »
It doesn't matter that individual developers don't like to install Java.

Personally I'm not talking about desktop software for end-users, I'm talking about Enterprise web/network development where Java is prevalent.

I've tried finding ways to introduce FPC at my current workplace, which is almost exclusively Java (And CFML, which runs on the JVM).

Lack of documentation, lack of free libraries (To compete with things like HikariCP etc.) are issues I have not been able to overcome.

It's been said before, just compare the gettings-started for Lazarus/FPC and say Python, there's a MASSIVE difference in barrier-to-entry, and after that there's still a large barrier-to-productivity.

Personally, I don't use Lazarus/FPC as a learning tool, I'm using it to solve problems, create products, etc. and that means comparing it to other solutions, languages and frameworks available, and more often than not... FPC/Lazarus comes up short, at least when it comes to server-side scalability and easy-of-development.

Just try finding and setting up databases/drivers in an Enterprise environment with a mixture of databases, versions, access control, etc.

In Java I can just specify a maven package with drivers and I'm good to go. Even if I have to go download a JAR file with drivers (No Maven) it's super easy to find and set up.

With Lazarus? I've hit complete roadblocks several times just finding the right drivers for my development machine, not to mention the deployment server architectures.

Yes, this is the reality we're competing against, no matter how much you like or dislike things like Java, that's what we're comparing to, because we have to, and FPC is losing more often than not.

RAW

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2018, 12:54:43 am »
Yes, I know, my FREE PASCAL world is very small... :)

It's easy to understand that if you need the JVM in any case, then the big libraries are very nice to use. I hear all the time that people say with JAVA you can do the same but with less code. And it looks like they enchanced it again with KOTLIN.... much less code they say...

I guess it's the same when it comes to DOT NET. Newer WINDOWS versions got it out of the box and if it's installed then why not use it...  OK, it's probably hard to compete with JAVA when it comes to multiplatform development... I don't know if MONO can change that and if someone is searching a programming job, then I guess JAVA is a very good choice...

In general I like the idea that all experienced programmers work together on ONE programming language that can be used for everything. Makes much more sense to me, but I know that will not happen ...

Anyway ... for WINDOWS desktop apps FREE PASCAL and OBJECT PASCAL are the best languages for me...   :P :D
Windows 7 Pro (x64 Sp1) & Windows XP Pro (x86 Sp3).

Trenatos

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2018, 12:27:58 am »
Lazarus and FPC are nice, I use them to create all sorts of things on desktop and server, that's not what my complaints are  :)

RAW

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2018, 01:24:37 am »
I know... when it comes to enterprise solutions then things are different...
Especially if something doesn't have a well known name or some kind of acceptance. Probably the very first hurdle...
Windows 7 Pro (x64 Sp1) & Windows XP Pro (x86 Sp3).

dbannon

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Re: Blogs
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2018, 05:06:14 am »
.....
But i looks like nobody (wants) to understand.
I will live with this mess as everyone else does here - I won't bring it up anymore.

tverwelj, there is no doubt you are right, and most Lazarus users DO understand. But what you want to do is just too hard !  I said almost the same things as you, 12 months ago when I first started playing. I had used Delphi I and II and way back then, the documentation was brilliant. Press F1 and 9 out of 10 times, you got what you wanted. Often a little snippet of code you could copy.

Lazarus is now a heaps better product than early Delphi but far poorer documented. Documentation is up to the individual user. Wiki's generally are always full of outdated info and missing something but it is, at least, an easy job to document something on the Lazarus one and I find doing so better than writing notes to myself AND I get to feel good in the hope I have helped someone.

But how can we improve the wiki ?  Searching the wiki is a problem because it treats every word equally. And because (and its a GOOD THING) many pages are not in the language we search in. The "Categories" model is a good one but there are about 2000 categories. (Perhaps only 300 - 400 are in English though ...).

Maybe we need a new language sensitive categories model based on the Index of the Borland books shipped back in 1998 ?  Copyright issues ? Just a Catagories and Language sensitive search engine ?

I massively appreciate the "natural intelligence" search engine behind the forum. Honestly, the knowledge and willingness to help in the Forum is arguably Lazarus's greatest asset. But many new users are reluctant to use the Forum and do want to find a well organized, comprehensive wiki.

So folks, saying the information is out there is not enough, we need to make it findable in the way a new user (and a new to medium user like me) expects.

Davo
 

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