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Author Topic: WANTED: A Few Great Apps  (Read 40314 times)

SymbolicFrank

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2017, 09:53:24 am »
When you ask a programmer what to choose for a first programming language, they tend to recommend the one they use most. Because they think that one is easiest to use.

Sometimes they will recommend the one that is used most often.

In both cases, that tends to be C++ or JavaScript, depending on the type of application they make. Both of which I certainly would not recommend.


Btw, for the native look and feel: would that include a Windows 8 version as well?

Phil

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2017, 08:29:08 pm »
When you ask a programmer what to choose for a first programming language, they tend to recommend the one they use most. Because they think that one is easiest to use.

I'll have to say I never get asked that question.

In both cases, that tends to be C++ or JavaScript, depending on the type of application they make. Both of which I certainly would not recommend.

If you're doing Web app development, I don't see how you avoid JS completely. Although it is possible to at least think about doing it with FPC and converting your Pascal to JS. Take a look at this little kit and example:

https://macpgmr.github.io/MacXPlatform/pnj-src.zip

Btw, for the native look and feel: would that include a Windows 8 version as well?

I imagine that the Win32 API is still "a" native look and feel with Windows, regardless of version.

Much of look and feel is just about common sense, using what makes sense in light of the conventions and guidelines of a given platform. Those things don't change very fast.

For example, consider dialog button placement. Microsoft guidelines suggest one way, Apple and Google another. If a program uses the same placement across all platforms, what does that mean? Sloppiness? Laziness? Not good to contemplate what other things the developer might have skipped over.

Here's a nice little article that covers buttons. Quite a fun little read.

http://babich.biz/primary-secondary-action-buttons


SymbolicFrank

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2017, 10:14:34 pm »
I'll have to say I never get asked that question.
I ask interesting questions.

Quote
If you're doing Web app development, I don't see how you avoid JS completely. Although it is possible to at least think about doing it with FPC and converting your Pascal to JS. Take a look at this little kit and example:

https://macpgmr.github.io/MacXPlatform/pnj-src.zip
Are you advocating web as a good programming platform, or as a necessary evil? Because it's one of the worst computing platforms ever designed. It's just that managers and salesmen like it, and users don't have to do scary things like installing software. Almost all system administrators hate it when users are allowed to install software themselves as well. But they tend to dislike allowing users to do anything whatsoever.

Quote
I imagine that the Win32 API is still "a" native look and feel with Windows, regardless of version.

Much of look and feel is just about common sense, using what makes sense in light of the conventions and guidelines of a given platform. Those things don't change very fast.

For example, consider dialog button placement. Microsoft guidelines suggest one way, Apple and Google another. If a program uses the same placement across all platforms, what does that mean? Sloppiness? Laziness? Not good to contemplate what other things the developer might have skipped over.
I have made very many user interfaces. Most of them designed by interviewing the users-to-be. And just about all of them were different, and custom.

What you are referring to is, that people don't like change. And that they expect applications to have a ribbon where you cannot find anything, instead of a menu, right?

Thaddy

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2017, 10:17:29 pm »
FWIW: When I am teaching, I use Python as a first language. After that Pascal. After that the curly brackets dialects.
(Kernigan and Richie must have been both very drunk when they replaced  begin/end with {/} and reversed the order of the parameter types with the parameter names)
There's a beautiful logic in that sequence  :) O:-) Javascript - in its non-strict form - is just confusing things for first timers and from an educational point of view likely to introduce bad habits.
Start with a strongly typed language. ANY strongly typed language. Ok, Python is not strongly typed perse... but it has elegance and is easy to learn. From Python to Pascal is easier than from Python to the curly brackets mafia languages... I once wrote a C-like parser for a new language that has }/{ as begin/end... It is more pleasing to the eye....
 8-) 8-)

(That was actually in a hotel room during a Borland conference some place far away (Montreal) from home during the launch days of C++builder 3. We had good fun with it... some of you may remember it...)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 10:31:59 pm by Thaddy »
Specialize a type, not a var.

Phil

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2017, 10:52:03 pm »
FWIW: When I am teaching, I use Python as a first language. After that Pascal. After that the curly brackets dialects.

That seems quite reasonable.

What about Swift, which has Python influences (tuples, no semi-colons - well, optional), but also Pascal influences (variable, then type in declarations - although type is optional too)? I guess it's still a curly braces language. I remember when Swift came out and they said it was influenced by Python and I wondered if eventually they would make the braces optional and do code blocks via indentation like in Python. Doesn't look like that's going to happen.

It's said that Apple is okay with their products getting disrupted, as long as it's from within rather than without. It looks like that's what they did when they blew their own pet language, Objective C, out of the water with Swift. Three years in and it's already firmly established in the Apple world and nicely available for Linux severs too.





valdir.marcos

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2017, 09:02:11 pm »
Why not promote apps already written with Pascal ?
The main one I can think of is Skype, written with Delphi Pascal.

Not sure what that does for anyone here.
Nothing. ICQ, MSN Messenger and Skype are not popular any more... All of them (old desktop communication software) were replace by Slack, WhatsApp, WeChat, HipChat, Facebook Messenger, Telegram, Google Hangouts, GroupMe, and the like.

And isn't that a programming urban legend? If not, please post documentation.


I don't know if it's true, but he worked 3 years for Skype according to his LinkedIn profile. https://www.linkedin.com/in/toivoannus

So I guess we've established that they were still using Delphi, what, a dozen years ago. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

https://forums.embarcadero.com/message.jspa?messageID=701932
Re: Skype for Windows still Delphi?
Posted: Jun 11, 2015 12:31 PM
------------------
It is still written in Delphi (specifically, in either D2009 or D2010).
I know this because the resources of the EXE file for the latest Skype version
(7.5.0.102 compiled on June 2 2015, according to its version resource) has
several Delphi-specific resources - DVCLAL, PACKAGEINFO, and CHARTABLE.
In particular, the CHARTABLE resource was introduced in Delphi 2009 and removed
in XE. It was used by early versions of the System.Character.TCharacter
class, but was later replaced with a const byte array declared directly in
the System.Character unit.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
-------------------


Why Skype used Delphi?
http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/why_skype_used_delphi.html

What programming language was Skype originally written in?
http://www.quora.com/Skype/What-programming-language-was-Skype-originally-written-in?mid=55546

--------------------
Toivo Annus, worked at Skype
Updated Jun 4, 2011 · Upvoted by
Andreas Sjölund, worked at Skype and
Jaanus Kase, I designed Skype chat in 2004

The original internal alpha version of UI was built in QT and we hoped to do few platforms at same take. However the result looked like crap, our progress seemed slow and we ditched the QT about 2 months before public beta release.

Delphi was chosen because our first senior UI developer was very skilled at Delphi (besides dozen other languages-environments) and we saw D as most productive, fastest, efficient way to build our app given our team/lead developer skills and also getting very good UX on MSWin platform.

For linux the QT remained and on OSX it has been Cocoa from the start. The functional core components which did the heavy lifting under the UI have always been the same C/C++ as Ahti pointed out.
--------------------


What is Skype coded in?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-Skype-coded-in

Skype employs Delphi programmers
http://developers-club.com/posts/133951/

--------------------
Delphi  5 years, 8 months ago (December 2011 or January 2012)

Here such announcement has appeared in social network LinkedIn then has instantly scattered on many other things sotsialkam and to blogs. It would Seem anything remarkable. But …

All know that Skype is written on Delphi, and is hardly probable not the most known Delphi application. As many know that not so long ago Skype has been got Microsoft. Concerning what there were enough conjectures. Many thought that one of the most popular messadzherov will be copied in other environment of working out. Now we see that it has not occurred, and similar will not occur. Otherwise in what sense of hiring (actually Microsoft'ом) Delphi developers?

As is curious on what version Delphi, obviously, is written Skype.
--------------------

valdir.marcos

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2017, 09:42:01 pm »
@Phil
It this what you are talking about?

Skype for Windows touch-first app loses out to desktop alternative
https://www.cnet.com/news/skype-for-windows-touch-first-app-loses-out-to-desktop-alternative/

Microsoft dropping Metro Skype app, going back to the desktop
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/06/microsoft-dropping-metro-skype-app-going-back-to-the-desktop/

Skype for Windows still Delphi?
Posted: Jun 11, 2015 11:32 AM
https://forums.embarcadero.com/message.jspa?messageID=701932

Phil

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2017, 09:50:05 pm »
@Phil
It this what you are talking about?

Uh, no, I'm not interested in Skype. Surely the point here would be to showcase FPC and Lazarus apps, not an old Delphi app. I don't see how Skype is relevant in the least except maybe for nostalgic Delphi programmers.

No, my idea is to showcase a small number of _new_ apps. And I think newness and freshness are important.

Look at this page:

https://electron.atom.io/#apps

That's a "visual invitation" to get involved in the Electron project.

avra

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2017, 10:29:13 pm »
I'm sure they would like to bundle Free Pascal as well.
No they wouldn't. In the early days od RPi I have tried to exploit the fact that most people consider Pascal as a good language to teach programming. Unfortunately they decided to settle with Python, adding Scratch a little later.
 :(
ct2laz - Conversion between Lazarus and CodeTyphon
bithelpers - Bit manipulation for standard types
pasettimino - Siemens S7 PLC lib

Phil

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2017, 11:09:31 pm »
I'm sure they would like to bundle Free Pascal as well.
No they wouldn't. In the early days od RPi I have tried to exploit the fact that most people consider Pascal as a good language to teach programming. Unfortunately they decided to settle with Python, adding Scratch a little later.
 :(

I suppose to have FPC bundled with something like the Pi might have been interesting, but was that hope ever very realistic? The precedent for bundling Python was already pretty well set, for example with the One Laptop Per Child initiative, which assumed Python from day one.

I would suggest that for younger programmers, no such reputation applies (teaching language). Pascal is likely to be tabula rasa for them. That's a good thing, though. But the question then is how do you plant the seed of Pascal and what does that seed look like? That's more about communication and branding than about technology and features and pedigree.

valdir.marcos

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2017, 11:15:07 pm »
@Phil
It this what you are talking about?

Uh, no, I'm not interested in Skype. Surely the point here would be to showcase FPC and Lazarus apps, not an old Delphi app. I don't see how Skype is relevant in the least except maybe for nostalgic Delphi programmers.

Skype for Windows Desktop is still build in Delphi, but there is nothing relevant about that information nor in other softwares made in Delphi for Free Pascal and Lazarus community.

No, my idea is to showcase a small number of _new_ apps. And I think newness and freshness are important.

Look at this page:

https://electron.atom.io/#apps

That's a "visual invitation" to get involved in the Electron project.

Besides open source games, I know nothing about cool software for the general public made in Free Pascal and Lazarus.

What I know is the obvious information that many companies migrated from Delphi to other programming languages, including Free Pascal and Lazarus.

Here in Brazil, the strength of Free Pascal and Lazarus relies on making software for commercial and database related applications, but that is a market niche not a general audience.

Phil

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2017, 11:24:17 pm »
Here in Brazil, the strength of Free Pascal and Lazarus relies on making software for commercial and database related applications, but that is a market niche not a general audience.

I feel your pain. I do scientific modeling. Not exactly a conversation starter.

Maybe a key is to find something about that kind of software that _is_ interesting to a larger audience, particularly younger programmers. For example, making anything that's commercial seems very interesting to me.


lainz

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2017, 11:45:44 pm »
We can start making a good showcase website with the already made stuff like lazpaint, text editors that I've seen in the wiki, and tools for programming also, I think we must not exclude projects.

Something like the website I did for OPM

Packages.lazarus-ide.org

But for projects. Categories, the icon and the official url. Also a SHORT description.

I can host it freely on GitHub and gitlab. Then if successful can host it in another Lazarus url.

Maybe I start something tomorrow. Today I did a pseudocode to JavaScript converter, I'm a student yet so is really hard for me do such things in a good way... But I can do some websites.

valdir.marcos

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2017, 11:48:36 pm »
I'm sure they would like to bundle Free Pascal as well.
No they wouldn't. In the early days od RPi I have tried to exploit the fact that most people consider Pascal as a good language to teach programming. Unfortunately they decided to settle with Python, adding Scratch a little later.
 :(

I suppose to have FPC bundled with something like the Pi might have been interesting, but was that hope ever very realistic? The precedent for bundling Python was already pretty well set, for example with the One Laptop Per Child initiative, which assumed Python from day one.

I would suggest that for younger programmers, no such reputation applies (teaching language). Pascal is likely to be tabula rasa for them. That's a good thing, though. But the question then is how do you plant the seed of Pascal and what does that seed look like? That's more about communication and branding than about technology and features and pedigree.

How many high schools or colleges do you know that still teaches any flavour of Pascal as a programming language?

I know many companies that have to offer a better salary and train inside the fresh young programmers just hired to maintain or develop Pascal made software.

Phil

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Re: WANTED: A Few Great Apps
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2017, 12:07:01 am »
We can start making a good showcase website with the already made stuff like lazpaint, text editors that I've seen in the wiki, and tools for programming also

What I'm thinking of is more app oriented rather than programmer and tool oriented. With apps, you immediately have the chance to do something visually interesting. Contrast these two sites, one of apps, one of modules:

https://electron.atom.io/#apps

https://www.mapbox.com/about/open/

Now, Mapbox's site is quite nice, but the simplicity and visual nature of Electron's site really grabs my eye. I don't know what criteria they used for selecting these particular apps out of the vast list of apps built with Electron, but most have really nice logos. I really like the Insomnia logo.

Something like the website I did for OPM

Packages.lazarus-ide.org

Not bad, but a couple suggestions:
(1) Do these packages have icons or logos? You have a lot of room to the right of the package name. Stick the icon/logo in there.
(2) Make the control that looks like a dropdown but isn't into a normal dropdown. Very disconcerting to me to see that kind of non-standard behavior.

 

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