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Author Topic: The future of Free Pascal  (Read 229068 times)

Bostjan

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #210 on: March 20, 2017, 10:41:14 am »

But truth be told FCP/Lazarus is no match for modern day Visual studio, C# and .net, especially now that you have free community edition of VS and .net being open sourced.

Just my 2c, don't shoot the me :)

How can you describe the "Modern Day" ? I think you mean popular culture of desktop/backend(Server side) programming.

I am still using delphi and fpc for production lines , as scada solutions (pascal scada) , testing softwares in very hard conditions.

Ok we won't shoot you :)

Modern day as the latest versions, so VS 2015 & 2017, .net 4.5 +, C# 6.0 +, and so on.
I remember when I was using D7 and then went to college where I started with Java and early versions of Eclipse and C# with visual studio .net 2002. For me it was like going back in time.
But now the situation is reversed VS studio, C# and .net is so much better and same for PyCharm + Python 3.5 or InteliJ + Java & Kotlin & Scala. These tools and languages surpassed FPC/Lazarus by a long way. It's understandable since their development is driven by companies and larger communities.

And yes FPC/Lazarus is still viable to use for existing projects, why change something just for sake of changing tools.
But for new projects I see less and less reasons to use FPC/Lazarus or any other compiled language, since modern managed or scipting alternatives are so much better.
Except for kernel, drivers or some low level libs, but for that I would use C which is still de facto standard. 

snowyforest

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #211 on: March 20, 2017, 11:31:16 am »
Is there any machine  learning or sentific algorithm library written in pascal?  :(

tr_escape

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #212 on: March 20, 2017, 11:33:40 am »
Is there any machine  learning or sentific algorithm library written in pascal?  :(

http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=32620.0

tr_escape

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #213 on: March 20, 2017, 12:02:07 pm »

Modern day as the latest versions, so VS 2015 & 2017, .net 4.5 +, C# 6.0 +, and so on.
I remember when I was using D7 and then went to college where I started with Java and early versions of Eclipse and C# with visual studio .net 2002. For me it was like going back in time.
But now the situation is reversed VS studio, C# and .net is so much better and same for PyCharm + Python 3.5 or InteliJ + Java & Kotlin & Scala. These tools and languages surpassed FPC/Lazarus by a long way. It's understandable since their development is driven by companies and larger communities.

-- OK. We are a small community means they have got a lot of power we expect more powerful tools from them... ;)


And yes FPC/Lazarus is still viable to use for existing projects, why change something just for sake of changing tools.

-- Yes because it isn't easy to port whole project to new tools.

But for new projects I see less and less reasons to use FPC/Lazarus or any other compiled language, since modern managed or scipting alternatives are so much better.

-- What kind project will you start ? I would like to look into.

Except for kernel, drivers or some low level libs, but for that I would use C which is still de facto standard.

-- For information my advise this project:
https://github.com/ultibohub


Handoko

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #214 on: March 20, 2017, 12:49:06 pm »
Modern day as the latest versions, so VS 2015 & 2017, .net 4.5 +, C# 6.0 +, and so on.
I remember when I was using D7 and then went to college where I started with Java and early versions of Eclipse and C# with visual studio .net 2002. For me it was like going back in time.
But now the situation is reversed VS studio, C# and .net is so much better and same for PyCharm + Python 3.5 or InteliJ + Java & Kotlin & Scala. These tools and languages surpassed FPC/Lazarus by a long way. It's understandable since their development is driven by companies and larger communities.

-- OK. We are a small community means they have got a lot of power we expect more powerful tools from them... ;)

The words "better" depends on the person who use it.

I don't earn from programming. I'm okay to spend money, but it should be affordable. I write programs and share with my friends, I use Linux they use Windows. So it should at least be able to compile to Linux and Windows. This forum is very active, I visit here often enjoying reading others sharing their experiences and learning a lot from them.

So, do VS 2015 & 2017, .net 4.5 +, C# 6.0 + have these?
- Affordable
- Can compile to Linux and Windows
- Have good forum

If not, then for me Lazarus/FPC is better. I'm open to new thing, if anyone know VS can pass my 3 requirements lets me know, I will try them. Currently, I plan to learn C++.

minesadorada

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #215 on: March 20, 2017, 01:10:07 pm »
For coding desktop apps which can be cross-compiled I think Laz/FPC is a great combination.  The IDE is fine and compilation is fast - and few auxiliary files to distribute.

It is a superb hobby language/IDE to quickly code a solution that looks pretty good on a desktop.

Internet and phone apps maybe not so good compared with other environments.
GPL Apps: Health MonitorRetro Ski Run
OnlinePackageManager Components: LazAutoUpdate, LongTimer, PoweredBy, ScrollText, PlaySound, CryptINI

jacmoe

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #216 on: March 20, 2017, 01:15:05 pm »
Dear Thaddy - I see where you are coming from: Object Pascal, as an idea, is from 1986.
We just have different ways of defining what Object Pascal is.
My definition is Object Pascal in it's final form is from 1995. Hejlsberg did wonderful things for - and I know that he did it with Turbo Pascal before it evolved into Delphi - the language, until he started to put everything but the kitchen sink into it. ((And before Borland screwed up, and Microsoft bought the major part of their engineers))


I have programmed in C, C++, PHP, C#, Python, ... - and I tell you:

Free Pascal's version of Object Pascal is a modern language.
A very modern language, indeed.

The fact that Free Pascal is not owned / backed by a huge corporation is a good thing.

Yes, I wish that the community was bigger, but that's not a selling point for me.
I know quality when I see it.

I agree fully with what Kamburelis writes in his great overview of Modern Object Pascal:
http://michalis.ii.uni.wroc.pl/~michalis/modern_pascal_introduction/modern_pascal_introduction.html

Edit:
Besides the elegance of the language, the fact that you can easily cross compile and distribute (read: xcopy) a fully self-contained executable, that is a killer feature!  ;D
Golang does that.
But it doesn't even come close to Free Pascal, which is fully native!
And, in my opinion: much more beautiful (as a language).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 01:20:18 pm by jacmoe »
more signal - less noise

Artlav

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #217 on: March 20, 2017, 01:18:32 pm »
Uh, I think you mean "way, way better than Delphi 7 in every conceivable way." Seriously, have you tried to use Delphi 7 recently?
Have been using it for over a decade, and seriously i'm only comparing to it because it's the only other pascal IDE with language&debugger integration there is to compare to.
Make no mistake, it's quite crusty and i had to tweak WINE in a rather unpleasant way to make it usable.
However, compared to it Lazarus still lacks some vital features like multiple source editor window support (how would you manage a project with 100 of files without that?).

Not all is lost - i've been giving Lazarus a try every couple years, and this time it's actually looking pretty good - nice, modern IDE, great code tools, works without crutches.
Pretty much the only show stopper is the scaling - give me a way to work comfortably on a hundred file project in Lazarus, and Delphi 7 would go down the drain.

I suppose in your perfect world we'd all still be using Turbo Pascal on DOS? ;)
Good horrors, no.
I wouldn't go back to TP7 and TMT pascal even if i was paid to.

I don't like object oriented syntax of both C++ and Pascal, it's ugly and does not fit the languages.
So, i would have cut it down to the parts that enable defining abstract types, and no more - constructor, destructor, operator overload. Things you need to implement a string type, a dynamic array, a big integer, etc.
On the missing features, i would have liked to see C++ style code templates added - these save a lot of copy-pasting.

there are simply far too many people who for whatever reason view ancient IDEs/Compilers through rose-tinted lenses.
Honestly, seeing where Borland went after D7, i'm not too surprised.

Thaddy

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #218 on: March 20, 2017, 03:18:38 pm »
Says somebody who is using a Delphi version so old it doesn't even know {$pointermath on} and then starts complaining. Rather odd isn't it..... Sigh... FPC even changed its semantics to be Delphi compatible... Sigh, again... You are definitively using D7 or below. Even Delphi evolved.... Sigh.... Sorry, your examples, both here and on the bug tracker simply work with recent Delphi's and FPC.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 03:21:22 pm by Thaddy »
Object Pascal programmers should get rid of their "component fetish" especially with the non-visuals.

RAW

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #219 on: March 20, 2017, 03:20:23 pm »
I would love to see FREE PASCAL and LAZARUS living forever and getting more important to programming in general...

I HATE  >:D DotNet-UpdatePackages and C++ RedistPackages and Java-Runtime-Crap and even more stupid developers and companies that aren't able to write down those requirements where I can see this immediately. I don't want so recognize that when installing or testing a new software.

It's so beautiful to write FREE PASCAL-Programs and LCL-Programs and LLCL-Programs and fpGUI-Programs within one nice IDE. And get a lot of nice libraries to work with it just for free too... that's a great gift! LONG LIVE FREE PASCAL..  :)

Yeaahhh, I don't know a .... about real world programming needs... , but I think TURBO PASCAL and DELPHI had once a great position on the market and without the power of the MS-machinery the PASCAL language would be as popular as it was once.
Windows 7 Pro (x64 Sp1) & Windows XP Pro (x86 Sp3).

Thaddy

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #220 on: March 20, 2017, 03:23:05 pm »
I HATE  >:D DotNet-UpdatePackages and C++ RedistPackages and Java-Runtime-Crap and even more stupid developers and companies that aren't able to write down those requirements where I can see this immediately. I don't want so recognize that when installing or testing a new software.
Well, first do any course in computer science.  I would advise pre-beginner.
Object Pascal programmers should get rid of their "component fetish" especially with the non-visuals.

RAW

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #221 on: March 20, 2017, 03:36:04 pm »
Quote
Well, first do any course in computer science.  I would advise pre-beginner.
Thanks for the tip, but I don't want to get brainwashed to love all this ... I think there are enough people who think this way and I just want to keep my position for a while...
Windows 7 Pro (x64 Sp1) & Windows XP Pro (x86 Sp3).

snowyforest

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #222 on: March 20, 2017, 03:37:53 pm »

Handoko

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #223 on: March 20, 2017, 03:39:47 pm »
I HATE  >:D DotNet-UpdatePackages ...

I don't have problem with dot Net framework. But I dislike it because it is not backward compatible. Some weeks ago, I helped my customer install his office computer. He own a license software cd. It failed to install because it requires .net 2. That computer is using Windows 7 and already has dot net 3.5 installed. I went to MS .net website to download .net version 2. But sadly, it said .net 2 can't install on 64-bit Windows. What  >:(
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 03:44:34 pm by Handoko »

RAW

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Re: The future of Free Pascal
« Reply #224 on: March 20, 2017, 03:47:22 pm »
@Handoko: me too...
That's exactly the same with C++: I installed the 2010-Pack and several 2013-Packs and an old ChessPRG requires the 2008-Package. What ?! And of course that one won't install on Windows 7. Once I had the 2008 Package installed, but I can't remember how...
Windows 7 Pro (x64 Sp1) & Windows XP Pro (x86 Sp3).

 

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