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Author Topic: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!  (Read 86649 times)

hnb

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2015, 11:30:22 am »
Don't do anything for it before consulting Mattias. I have understood he already has code for it but has not committed yet.

Ok. Btw. this is key feature for many other positions in my TODO list :)

Actually, I think NextGen/ARC could be quite an interesting endeavor, as long as it would have been kept as optional mode that can be switched on and off.

But this is not optional mode for Delphi mobile :/ . I am using FPC for mobile, because Delphi can't handle framework like mORMot and APK size is extremely big ~40MB for empty application (while in FPC I can get enterprise oriented app with APK size around 1-2MB!).

AppMethod is free to use.
You are wrong. About Appmethod "Free plan":

*Only C++ is included
*After 30 days, you can only develop Android Phone apps
Checkout NewPascal initiative and donate beer - ready to use tuned FPC compiler + Lazarus for mORMot project

best regards,
Maciej Izak

tk

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2015, 11:43:47 am »
I just hope they don't put Delphi into asshole and make it affordable for single programmers and small companies.
Some annual subscription scheme without the initial license fee would be ideal.
(We started our commercial products with the XE edition where we bought the first Delphi license. Paying additional subscription fee at the same time was too much for us.)
On Windows there is IMO not better IDE than Delphi, for software type we make (dedicated desktop GUI applications).
Lazarus is fine but still not on par with Delphi in many aspects already mentioned here, we use it only for Linux builds.

JuhaManninen

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2015, 04:07:34 pm »
Delphi & VCL should not be multiplatform. Focus on Windows. Instead of trying to kick many asses at once, pick an ass to kick and kick it good

VCL is not multiplatform. It is Windows only.
Delphi IDE is not multiplatform either. It requires Windows + .NET.
Being multiplatform is however the most important feature in future development tools. Here FPC/Lazarus will have an advantage over Delphi, especially if cross-compilation becomes easier.

Windows is not a dominant OS any more. In future it will be a platform for some CAD-, graphics- etc. design tools and for high-end games. All "normal" tasks like web, e-mail, SoMe, listening music, watching streamed video and so on, are often done with other platforms and in future more so.
There was a time when Microsoft blackmailed manufacturers to include Windows in every machine they sell. Now Microsoft gives Windows Bing for free to any manufacturer who bothers to take it.
Times change ...

Sticking with Windows only would be a big mistake for any development tool vendor. Delphi is doing the right thing pushing FireMonkey and cross-platform development. But yes, they could make a VCL-only starter version free.

But who will use paid IDE instead of free IDE like Lazarus? Btw Embarcadero are now .NET b*tches IMO.

Delphi is still better in many areas. Project groups, debugger, Unicode ... and most of all the selection of 3rd party components. For example if a project uses one of those fabulous 3rd party grid comps, there is no way to switch to Lazarus.
I realized this is something we cannot fix ourselves! All the other missing pieces will be added for sure over time, but this one requires some PR and co-operation with component vendors.
I sent a mail to BergSoft about their Next components. I offered to help their porting process for free if they decide to do it. I am planning to contact some other vendors, too.
The biggest obstacle for vendors until now has been the delivery of binary-only evaluation and demo versions. For a cross-platform open source system it is just too difficult. That is why most component vendors decided not to support Lazarus.
In practice they must change their delivery policy. They must include source code always, maybe including a dual licence or otherwise restricting it for evaluation purposes only.
Let's see what BergSoft says ...
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux 64-bit.

Hawking

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2015, 04:32:31 pm »
Quote
Delphi is still better in many areas. Project groups, debugger, Unicode ... and most of all the selection of 3rd party components. For example if a project uses one of those fabulous 3rd party grid comps, there is no way to switch to Lazarus.
^That is true
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taazz

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2015, 04:37:59 pm »
In practice they must change their delivery policy. They must include source code always, maybe including a dual licence or otherwise restricting it for evaluation purposes only.
Let's see what BergSoft says ...
No that is the wrong conclusion, in practice lazarus/fpc needs dynamic packages, as always you have no say on their policies you can only make things easier for them to use the tool or not, the moment you loose focus of that and start dictating policies to your customers (yeah I know they are not customers) is the moment you (as a lazarus community not personaly) is marked as arrogant freeloaders and the companies will move on to other tools. Also standardizing the ppu/obj formats keeping them compatible between compiler versions would go even farther but that's not something I can talk about with out researching it first.
Good judgement is the result of experience … Experience is the result of bad judgement.

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Laz: Lazarus 1.4.4 FPC 2.6.4 i386-win32-win32/win64

skalogryz

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2015, 04:46:09 pm »
Also standardizing the ppu/obj formats keeping them compatible between compiler versions would go even farther but that's not something I can talk about with out researching it first.
you cannot "standardize" .o format. It's defined by the external (GNU) build tools are used. Even if FPC has an internal writer and/or linker for the binaries, it still keeps compatibility with externals.

The best benefit of this approach is adding a new platform doesn't require implementation of the internal writer and/or linker.

taazz

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2015, 04:58:25 pm »
Also standardizing the ppu/obj formats keeping them compatible between compiler versions would go even farther but that's not something I can talk about with out researching it first.
you cannot "standardize" .o format. It's defined by the external (GNU) build tools are used. Even if FPC has an internal writer and/or linker for the binaries, it still keeps compatibility with externals.

The best benefit of this approach is adding a new platform doesn't require implementation of the internal writer and/or linker.
That's a good reason to rely on external tools that does not make it impossible to standardize it. It just brings it out of your control if you let to others.
Good judgement is the result of experience … Experience is the result of bad judgement.

OS : Windows 7 64 bit
Laz: Lazarus 1.4.4 FPC 2.6.4 i386-win32-win32/win64

skalogryz

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2015, 05:02:39 pm »
That's a good reason to rely on external tools that does not make it impossible to standardize it. It just brings it out of your control if you let to others.
Let me put it this way. They're already standardized and FPC won't change their standard :)
The only alternative is to put the binary code into PPU (similar to Delphi's DCU), but no other tool (except for FPC based) would be able to use them.

taazz

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2015, 05:17:29 pm »
That's a good reason to rely on external tools that does not make it impossible to standardize it. It just brings it out of your control if you let to others.
Let me put it this way. They're already standardized and FPC won't change their standard :)
thats something for the fpc team to decide I'm not interesting to dictate policy only in the technical details for the time being.
The only alternative is to put the binary code into PPU (similar to Delphi's DCU), but no other tool (except for FPC based) would be able to use them.
Yeah I'm interesting in linking in fpc executables binaries created with other tools not at all sharing with those tools fpc created binaries especially when you take in to account that those other tools are a lot better in optimization than fpc. If I have to use C/C++ for a project fpc being able to create compatible binary files will not play any role. But hey that's just me I guess.
Good judgement is the result of experience … Experience is the result of bad judgement.

OS : Windows 7 64 bit
Laz: Lazarus 1.4.4 FPC 2.6.4 i386-win32-win32/win64

lazjump

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2015, 05:28:01 pm »
Delphi & VCL should not be multiplatform. Focus on Windows. Instead of trying to kick many asses at once, pick an ass to kick and kick it good

VCL is not multiplatform. It is Windows only.
Delphi IDE is not multiplatform either. It requires Windows + .NET.
Being multiplatform is however the most important feature in future development tools. Here FPC/Lazarus will have an advantage over Delphi, especially if cross-compilation becomes easier.

Windows is not a dominant OS any more. In future it will be a platform for some CAD-, graphics- etc. design tools and for high-end games. All "normal" tasks like web, e-mail, SoMe, listening music, watching streamed video and so on, are often done with other platforms and in future more so.
There was a time when Microsoft blackmailed manufacturers to include Windows in every machine they sell. Now Microsoft gives Windows Bing for free to any manufacturer who bothers to take it.
Times change ...

Sticking with Windows only would be a big mistake for any development tool vendor. Delphi is doing the right thing pushing FireMonkey and cross-platform development. But yes, they could make a VCL-only starter version free.

Yes you are right. I got mixed up between multiplatform and cross-platform development  :-[ :-[ :-[

I think Windows is staying dominant as the operating system for business applications. Windows Bing and Visual Studio 2015 Community Edition is a very strategic move for Microsoft. Maybe we could see the fruits of this move like 3 years from now, that it is staying dominant for business applications.

Windows has a huge "hidden user base"; they are people that using illegal/pirated Windows. Many of them use Windows for business. And because they are spoiled by all the Windows applications they use everyday, using another operating systems is not a choice for them.

Now when they buy cheap laptop, they get Windows 10 Bing for free. They could now use the latest Windows legally without hiding it. When they need custom-made applications, they could openly hire people to create the applications (when they were using pirated Windows, they would silently find shady programmers that would not say a thing about the pirated Windows).

Thus the demand for Windows and Windows applications would still be high.

I think Delphi should not go to the path of cross-platform development. Forget Linux, Android, and other platforms. Focus on Windows. Let "Delphi" be the brand of development tool for Windows only. Give all the cross-platform development baggage to AppMethod which is a younger brand without historical baggage.

BTW I appreciate your effort in contacting and offering BergSoft help to port Next Components to Lazarus. This is a good initiative. I hope for positive feedback from Boki.
I thought Delphi was expensive until I learned the price of ExtJS

balazsszekely

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2015, 05:41:51 pm »
In my opinion desktop development is dying. To be more precise, native apps have their place, but desktop development it is going to be a very small piece of the computing pie. So lazarus developers "resistance is futile you will be assimilated".  :D
Damn, the only problem is I hate web development.

lazjump

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2015, 05:57:35 pm »
In my opinion desktop development is dying. To be more precise, native apps have their place, but desktop development it is going to be a very small piece of the computing pie. So lazarus developers "resistance is futile you will be assimilated".  :D
Damn, the only problem is I hate web development.

I thought also that desktop development and PCs are dying. Until I saw a person working with Google Sheet on a 10" tablet in a rural area that only have GPRS/Edge connection, then I am sure that PCs and desktop development won't die that soon  :D
I thought Delphi was expensive until I learned the price of ExtJS

JuhaManninen

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2015, 06:12:07 pm »
No that is the wrong conclusion, in practice lazarus/fpc needs dynamic packages,

Uhhh...
Dynamic packages would not solve this thing anyhow. FPC/Lazarus does not have a global byte code format like Java has. The sources are compiled to native binary which depends on CPU architecture like x86, x86_64, ARM (different versions), PPC etc. It also depends on operating system, FPC version and the build tool chain.
taazz, did you not know that?

Quote
as always you have no say on their policies you can only make things easier for them to use the tool or not, the moment you loose focus of that and start dictating policies to your customers (yeah I know they are not customers) is the moment you (as a lazarus community not personaly) is marked as arrogant freeloaders and the companies will move on to other tools. Also standardizing the ppu/obj formats keeping them compatible between compiler versions would go even farther but that's not something I can talk about with out researching it first.

It is amazing how you can misunderstand my writing so completely! Do you do it on purpose?

I offered free help for a component vendor if they choose to support Lazarus. They would get more customers and sales. Lazarus would become more attractive for developers. It would be a win-win situation. If they don't want to support Lazarus then OK, no harm done.
I am not dictating policies to anybody! Where did you get that idea?
I honestly don't understand you!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 07:06:26 pm by JuhaManninen »
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux 64-bit.

JuhaManninen

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2015, 06:26:49 pm »
In my opinion desktop development is dying. To be more precise, native apps have their place, but desktop development it is going to be a very small piece of the computing pie. So lazarus developers "resistance is futile you will be assimilated".  :D
Damn, the only problem is I hate web development.

Heh, fortunately web development is not the only alternative.
The mobile OSes and even Linux distros are getting native apps for many purposes like banks, online shops, train and bus tickets etc.
For a while it looked bad, everything was moving to browsers + JS, but the tide has changed. I have anticipated this change for a long time because the browser interface sucks so badly technically. Ok, browser interface is good enough for many things but native apps always beat them and use less resources.

I am only now learning about AppMethod, somehow I missed it earlier. It is for native development. Looks good!
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux 64-bit.

hnb

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2015, 08:05:08 pm »
I am only now learning about AppMethod, somehow I missed it earlier. It is for native development. Looks good!

Nothing to learn. AppMethod = Delphi with Firemonkey only (no VCL) and with higher pricing model. They create AppMethod to cut off Delphi name for new developers (because Delphi is often associated as something outdated). Empty Firemonkey APK application for Android have size around 40MB(!)
Checkout NewPascal initiative and donate beer - ready to use tuned FPC compiler + Lazarus for mORMot project

best regards,
Maciej Izak

 

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