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Author Topic: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!  (Read 86645 times)

Thaddy

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #120 on: February 06, 2017, 06:00:09 pm »
What does that last remark mean? FPC has internal assemblers on most platforms since a very long time.

Note that Delphi will probably never be open source
- The IDE contains lot's of third party code and intellectual property.
- The original 32bit compilers are written in C and quite a mess and will probably never be open sourced for that reason.
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x2nie

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2017, 01:42:32 pm »
- The original 32bit compilers are written in C and quite a mess and will probably never be open sourced for that reason.
How do you know that? while delphi is not an open source yet :-X
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Thaddy

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2017, 03:57:32 pm »
Because it is public information... (that the compiler is written in C and the IDE in Delphi) and because I actually have seen parts of the source of the compiler at the former Borland campus.
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Mr.Madguy

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2017, 04:17:25 pm »
Let's hope Delphi will become free (at least limited version of it) at some point. Yea, I know about Starter, but I'm not sure, I can use Starter at my job even for my personal projects. Don't get me wrong - FPC is great, but it suffers from common problem of all free projects - it isn't as polished and well supported, as commercial projects are. Example: 8 years passed since release of Delphi 2009 and FPC still isn't fully compatible with it.
Is it healthy for project not to have regular stable releases?
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marcov

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2017, 04:24:59 pm »
Because it is public information... (that the compiler is written in C and the IDE in Delphi) and because I actually have seen parts of the source of the compiler at the former Borland campus.

I always heard the compiler was in C++, not C.  Though if they use a subset of C++ that might not be that different.

guest58172

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2017, 04:58:50 pm »
The visitor pattern, apparently often used in compilers, must not be so friendly to write in C. I also think it's C++. What's really needed is the overloads, not class + inheritance but with just overloads it means that the visitor must be written from a to z each time an operation has to be made to decorate the AST nodes.

georgebou

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2017, 05:04:07 pm »
I think after some version Delphi was built from a delphi compiler

bee

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2017, 04:06:23 am »
Let's hope Delphi will become free (at least limited version of it) at some point. Yea, I know about Starter, but I'm not sure, I can use Starter at my job even for my personal projects. Don't get me wrong - FPC is great, but it suffers from common problem of all free projects - it isn't as polished and well supported, as commercial projects are. Example: 8 years passed since release of Delphi 2009 and FPC still isn't fully compatible with it.
Please, don't spread this fallacy. First, FPC is great and it has nothing to do with being free and open source project. There are many free open source projects out there that are as good as or even better than Delphi. In fact, the development tools world is now going free and open source, even Microsoft's. The problem with FPC (and Lazarus as well) isn't because it's free and open source, but rather the lacks of financial support to back the development.

Second, FPC speaks object Pascal, not Delphi. FPC can be great without having full compatibility with Delphi. And compatibility goes both ways, it's not just an obligation for FPC to be compatible with Delphi (or other Pascal compilers, for that matter), but also the other way around. FPC and Lazarus are NOT the free and open source vesion of Delphi. If you keep thinking that FPC and Lazarus must be exactly like Delphi to be great, then you're using it wrong. If you prefer Delphi then please use Delphi, and be ready with all the consequences. The same goes if you prefer to use FPC and Lazarus. Both Delphi and FPC/Laz has its own strength, weaknesses, advantages, and disadvantages, etc. If you pick one, you should accept each uniqueness.
-Bee-

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Handoko

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2017, 04:23:43 am »
+1 bee

Thaddy

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2017, 07:26:00 am »
Because it is public information... (that the compiler is written in C and the IDE in Delphi) and because I actually have seen parts of the source of the compiler at the former Borland campus.

I always heard the compiler was in C++, not C.  Though if they use a subset of C++ that might not be that different.

Actually, part of Barry Kelly's first work on the compiler was an attempt to refactor the C code into C++. When I saw the compiler code Barry Kelly was probably still in high school. And there was still the campus, not a block of empty buildings.
Barry did his work based in the UK.
I have my doubts if a full transition/objectification into something resembling modern C++ ever was achieved. I also know that in D32/D2 days an effort was made to try and see if the compiler could be made in Delphi itself, but it was abandoned for lack of resources, not because it was impossible.

The funny thing is that remnants of those efforts are still visible in (maybe older D2/D3, need to check if it disappeared) compiler options, but the other way around: the "possibility/option" to link to C++ classes!? that actually never worked in the Delphi we know. That option was to be able to use existing work on the compiler in view of a future transition. NOT for C++ builder, that was still later and is again the other way around: linking Delphi code into C++
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:41:58 am by Thaddy »
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mangakissa

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2017, 09:33:26 am »
Second, FPC speaks object Pascal, not Delphi. FPC can be great without having full compatibility with Delphi. And compatibility goes both ways, it's not just an obligation for FPC to be compatible with Delphi (or other Pascal compilers, for that matter), but also the other way around. FPC and Lazarus are NOT the free and open source vesion of Delphi. If you keep thinking that FPC and Lazarus must be exactly like Delphi to be great, then you're using it wrong. If you prefer Delphi then please use Delphi, and be ready with all the consequences. The same goes if you prefer to use FPC and Lazarus. Both Delphi and FPC/Laz has its own strength, weaknesses, advantages, and disadvantages, etc. If you pick one, you should accept each uniqueness.
I'm agree with that. But a lot of people who explores Lazarus for the first time and try to convert a Delphi application to FPC, they see it's not working. I know Lazarus/FPC is built only on volunteers. If I had the guts to change things in Lazarus's code (and enough spare time) it's almost already finished and the conversion almost 'compatible' with the latest versions of Delphi.
Lazarus 2.06 (64b) / FPC 3.0.4 / Windows 10
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marcov

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2017, 10:03:12 am »
Let's hope Delphi will become free (at least limited version of it) at some point. Yea, I know about Starter, but I'm not sure, I can use Starter at my job even for my personal projects. Don't get me wrong - FPC is great, but it suffers from common problem of all free projects - it isn't as polished and well supported, as commercial projects are. Example: 8 years passed since release of Delphi 2009 and FPC still isn't fully compatible with it.
Please, don't spread this fallacy. First, FPC is great and it has nothing to do with being free and open source project. There are many free open source projects out there that are as good as or even better than Delphi. In fact, the development tools world is now going free and open source, even Microsoft's.

(afaik the opened VS code is a different one then the engine of VS. It originated in an portable version meant to expand .NET use to non MS products)

Quote
The problem with FPC (and Lazarus as well) isn't because it's free and open source, but rather the lacks of financial support to back the development.

Manpower. Of course manpower could theoretically be bought, but FPC organization couldn't manage full time programmers atm. Sometimes however companies that work with FPC employ people to do work on it though.

But mainly it is volunteer power that is needed. And that is not just fulltime developer. It can also take the form of becoming a kind of knowledgable power user for a package, filing bugs, testing problems and submitting the occasional patch.

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Second, FPC speaks object Pascal, not Delphi.

There is no difference there. Older versions of Delphi called the language "Object Pascal", and they changed it later because of marketing reasons. FPC can't call it Delphi since that is trademarked.

Quote
FPC can be great without having full compatibility with Delphi.

Sure. But the question is if that is really needed. It only frustrates people that try to keep codebases compatible with both, increasing the maintenance burden.

It is easy to play firebrand and  to say FPC must stand alone, but the consequences are dire.

Quote
And compatibility goes both ways, it's not just an obligation for FPC to be compatible with Delphi (or other Pascal compilers, for that matter), but also the other way around.

From Idera/Embarcadero that is hopeless, but many 3rd party Delphi component builders are doing the best they can to bring out products for FPC or keep their products FPC/lazarus compatible.

Quote
FPC and Lazarus are NOT the free and open source vesion of Delphi. If you keep thinking that FPC and Lazarus must be exactly like Delphi to be great, then you're using it wrong. If you prefer Delphi then please use Delphi, and be ready with all the consequences. The same goes if you prefer to use FPC and Lazarus. Both Delphi and FPC/Laz has its own strength, weaknesses, advantages, and disadvantages, etc. If you pick one, you should accept each uniqueness.

The problem is that there is a big difference between the lofty goal of being an independent project and deliberately frustrating compatibility and people working hard to keep codebases working with both compilers out of some misplaced pride sentiment.

I always regretted heavily the choice of Lazarus for objfpc which adds very little except being "different".

z505

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2017, 03:32:34 pm »
What is the most sold as second hand development software ?

- Delphi

Maybe years later we can ask new programmers...

Second hand? It is now illegal as of delphi 6 to buy delphi second hand.... It violates their license.
You can theoretically buy Delphi 5 (and previous) with its no nonsense license, but no other delphi versions

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post, but what did you mean by second hand... Like ebay copies of delphi and other websites?
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z505

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2017, 03:35:16 pm »

With Lazarus and FPC I don't need Delphi anymore :). I see only few missing elements in comparison with Delphi:

-Project Manager with Projects Group (my next TODO)
-Anonymous Methods
-Generics bug fixes and Generics.Collections ;) as part of FPC RTL/Lazarus
-RTTI.pas and few low level details

Another thing I have had issues with, that delphi has always worked well, is DLL's.
The LCL inside dll's doesn't work so great, but delphi's VCL works (basically, with a few catches/glitches that can be worked around).
Not so many lazarus developers care about this I guess, but I do.

I can make delphi dll's and load them into lazarus fine, but the other way around, using the LCL inside a Lazarus dll, is difficult. Even some problems occurred with ShowMessage() inside a dll, AFAIR.  Tried to debug this long ago, couldn't get far because I'm not an LCL wizard/guru.
think first, code after

z505

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Re: Embarcadero Delphi is sold!
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2017, 03:39:30 pm »
- The original 32bit compilers are written in C and quite a mess and will probably never be open sourced for that reason.
How do you know that? while delphi is not an open source yet :-X

There are cracker reverse engineer tools (sorry, Computing Science tools ;-)) that will tell you this information.

My favorite is STUD_PE but there are many more. Most of these tools are written by very smart respected crackers.
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