* * *

Author Topic: Windows 10 applications  (Read 18218 times)

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2017, 12:08:47 pm »
The next big thing in the industry is the universal applicatons ee an application that runs on phones netbooks,

It has been one of the hopeful new events since 2010, but it still seems as far as way then. Further even, since the landslide opportunity with the next Windows version after Windows 7 to be picked up by corporations seems to have passed.

But the dream already failed on the first step in 2007-2010, where many applications had different apps or at least form design for tablets and phones.

Quote
notebooks etc regardless of the underline processor and hardware if that is .NET/mono or java or html/javascript is yet to be determined but c/C++ and other compilers will see their pie reducing rapidly in the near future.

Native development has been declared dead every 2 years since Java emerged. We'll see.

I think a lot of what can be moved to browsers and apps has been moved.  The problem is that the App world hasn't cracked many of the hard nuts, like universal filesystem access (to exchange files between apps in non-precooked ways) and other OS resources.

Most apps usage in the corporate world seems to be about personal communication, and very little of business processes is converted to apps.  Which is strange, since quite a lot were browser based anyway.

Take a simple receptionist that must manage schedules etc. Most of them still have a fancy PC or Mac before them. A few also use a tablet, but all the ones I see use a webbrowser on that tablet, not an specialized app.

Yes, all corporates salivate over easy deployment of simple applications, and some might even dream of delivering all that way, but the problem is that gambling on a platform that won't make it in the end is very costly. You want to make a choice, and use that for a while, without having a tin of pesky developers on call.

And webbrowser based apps already deliver on that, so what do we really need apps for?

And not allowing sideloading makes it out of reach of non big-corporate companies anyway.


BobS

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2017, 01:33:37 pm »
"I think people that buy Windows S are then not really interested in custom software anyway. It is to counter the ChromeBook concept, but then with actualy storage and (some) offline capabilities"
I think it's too early to say.  For one thing right now this sounds mostly limited to schools, but it's possible Microsoft might offer it for free or very cheap to OEMs in which case it might become predominate.  The other thing is apparently MS has said that people will be able to upgrade to full Windows 10 for $0-$50 (I gather right now it's $0 but may change) so, assuming whatever they bought is powerful enough, I guess there will be a way for people to get out of the walled garden if motivated.  But if MS does this it might push Windows 10 to a dominate position with the 10 S leading with the most users, though none of this would happen overnight, I expect win32/64 to be around for a good while yet.  Certainly this seems to be the direction MS is hoping for...though there are a lot of "mights" in there.


As to those who think desktops are in decline, people keep saying that, but they never do, what is true is that people hang on to them a lot longer as advancements in processors etc. haven't been more than incremental for years now.

 I went to x99 system from Sandybridge two years ago only because my motherboard cracked so I built the best system I could afford otherwise most of what I do could still work on that quite well, I plan on the new one lasting another four+ years (with a graphics card update).  And things like VR come along and help keep the market alive too (though I personally haven't gone that route I have gone 4k and a good desktop/laptop helps with that too).

In 30 years there will still probably be gamers and others needing more power than a phone/netbook can provide--imagine a space simulator like Kerbal Space Program that has true real physics emulation from planetary weather to solar winds.  And there might be some unforeseen, must have program that makes everyone "need" a desktop (a total emersion virtual reality that hooks directly into the brain so all senses are activated for example ;( ).

taazz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4411
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2017, 02:11:05 pm »
The next big thing in the industry is the universal applicatons ee an application that runs on phones netbooks,

It has been one of the hopeful new events since 2010, but it still seems as far as way then. Further even, since the landslide opportunity with the next Windows version after Windows 7 to be picked up by corporations seems to have passed.

But the dream already failed on the first step in 2007-2010, where many applications had different apps or at least form design for tablets and phones.
true forms is the new icon where everything looks the same but it needs manual setup to work efficiently. Then again it might not need any in the near future depending on the auto scale algorithms developed.
Quote
notebooks etc regardless of the underline processor and hardware if that is .NET/mono or java or html/javascript is yet to be determined but c/C++ and other compilers will see their pie reducing rapidly in the near future.

Native development has been declared dead every 2 years since Java emerged. We'll see.
not dead, compilers can not die the same way that assembly never died it is still used but it has a very narrow slice. the same way the compilers will loose market but they will never die.
I think a lot of what can be moved to browsers and apps has been moved.  The problem is that the App world hasn't cracked many of the hard nuts, like universal filesystem access (to exchange files between apps in non-precooked ways) and other OS resources.
This is bypassed with the use of online storage ee google drive, one drive, and other services will be the storage medium of the average user no more hard drives or loosing your data between devices manual backups etc. Will they ever be merged under a single api? well..., maybe, the same way that file systems are accessed with the same api inside an OS it will require a massive movement eg a super stores or two that has its own api that all others implement to use its front.
Most apps usage in the corporate world seems to be about personal communication, and very little of business processes is converted to apps.  Which is strange, since quite a lot were browser based anyway.

Take a simple receptionist that must manage schedules etc. Most of them still have a fancy PC or Mac before them. A few also use a tablet, but all the ones I see use a webbrowser on that tablet, not an specialized app.

Yes, all corporates salivate over easy deployment of simple applications, and some might even dream of delivering all that way, but the problem is that gambling on a platform that won't make it in the end is very costly. You want to make a choice, and use that for a while, without having a tin of pesky developers on call.

And webbrowser based apps already deliver on that, so what do we really need apps for?

And not allowing sideloading makes it out of reach of non big-corporate companies anyway.
all true everything that a business needs to do today can be done through the browser from document editing to appointment managing etc. The cost of rending those services is small enough for the SMEs that they will never select to buy the software for them selfs.  some spesialized applications ee courier, logistics, simulators etc might take some time to become available for rending but in the end they will become available after all most of them are server side executed and only shown the results to the end user.

Personally I hate the feeling of a web application the refresh of the page the expiration of the cookies and all that, as long as I can, I will always choose to use an application over a web app.

In any case the devices used to be part of a corporation seems to be less and less relevant a 21" tablet might not be common today but it might become common in the future if it costs and functions similar to a 21" touch screen. Keyboards and mouses might disappear altogether or seen inside a corporation only, the same way a typewriter was once.
Good judgement is the result of experience … Experience is the result of bad judgement.

OS : Windows 7 64 bit
Laz: Lazarus 1.4.4 FPC 2.6.4 i386-win32-win32/win64

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2017, 02:25:09 pm »
"I think people that buy Windows S are then not really interested in custom software anyway. It is to counter the ChromeBook concept, but then with actualy storage and (some) offline capabilities"
I think it's too early to say.  For one thing right now this sounds mostly limited to schools, but it's possible Microsoft might offer it for free or very cheap to OEMs in which case it might become predominate. 

Agree, I based that remark about the markets they are now going after (the US educational market mostly). But that can change.

Still, I don't really expect domination, but even if it is somewhat a hit in say, education and convertible (tablet+keyboard) market, I think it will remain just a another (and minority) tablet platform, and the dragged-by-the-hairs Windows desktop connection won't really have much effect on the core windows software market.

IOW, Windows S success is not automatically UWP is the next big thing on Windows.

The other thing is apparently MS has said that people will be able to upgrade to full Windows 10 for $0-$50 (I gather right now it's $0 but may change) so, assuming whatever they bought is powerful enough, I guess there will be a way for people to get out of the walled garden if motivated.

True, but that is full windows and win32/win64 again.

Quote
But if MS does this it might push Windows 10 to a dominate position with the 10 S leading with the most users, though none of this would happen overnight, I expect win32/64 to be around for a good while yet.  Certainly this seems to be the direction MS is hoping for...though there are a lot of "mights" in there.

You can never rule out something strange and unexpected will happen (just talk to people in the late nineties that Apple will be the biggest IT corp ). But for now, as I say above, it will be mostly yet another tablet and convertible, and that even if if it doesn't fail miserably. (which is also an option)

If it is a minor success, it will be interesting what MS next steps are, if they can truly lift the UWP platform from tablet limitations into something more usable for a wider set of application types.

Only then it makes sense to talk about some of that crossing over to the wider PC market.

Quote
As to those who think desktops are in decline, people keep saying that, but they never do, what is true is that people hang on to them a lot longer as advancements in processors etc. haven't been more than incremental for years now.

Well, it is not just hardware sales. Developer focus was mobile oriented for a while too. Though that seems more consolidated now, with a few big players getting the big bucks, and I get the feeling that many small devels had a shot at the mobile biz, and are now back.

The idea that every butcher must have his own app to stay relevant has been put to rest. Luckily.

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2017, 03:27:47 pm »
This is bypassed with the use of online storage ee google drive, one drive, and other services will be the storage medium of the average user no more hard drives or loosing your data between devices manual backups etc. Will they ever be merged under a single api?

I don't know, but if it is true, it is still far, far off.

I commute by train, and I don't see people using phones, tablets or chromebooks to work in it, but plain old laptops. Same as ten years ago albeit with maybe a slightly higher Apple factor.  For the rest you see people navigating social media on their phone, and watching video on (fairly small form factor) tablets and a few of the more outsized phones.

Quote
well..., maybe, the same way that file systems are accessed with the same api inside an OS it will require a massive movement eg a super stores or two that has its own api that all others implement to use its front.

The always-on connectivity is simply not there, except on Google-busses in Silicon Valley. Yes, people have wireless internet, but for social networks, not manipulate files. That would be costly, and, worse, often not available when you need it most (e.g. when you are stuck in a busy airport or train station, the Wifi often isn't very reliable)

Personally I hate the feeling of a web application the refresh of the page the expiration of the cookies and all that, as long as I can, I will always choose to use an application over a web app.

Me too, but most so called apps hardly feel better. Slow interactively, underutilization of large screens etc.

taazz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4411
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2017, 04:46:12 pm »
This is bypassed with the use of online storage ee google drive, one drive, and other services will be the storage medium of the average user no more hard drives or loosing your data between devices manual backups etc. Will they ever be merged under a single api?

I don't know, but if it is true, it is still far, far off.

I commute by train, and I don't see people using phones, tablets or chromebooks to work in it, but plain old laptops. Same as ten years ago albeit with maybe a slightly higher Apple factor.  For the rest you see people navigating social media on their phone, and watching video on (fairly small form factor) tablets and a few of the more outsized phones.

I haven't commuted for a couple of years now mostly because I work from home but if I remember correctly isn't the "commute index" a couple of generations behind the trends? ee you are going to see them in trains and buses and all that, after the trend generation becomes the new working force or is this only relevant here?

Quote
well..., maybe, the same way that file systems are accessed with the same api inside an OS it will require a massive movement eg a super stores or two that has its own api that all others implement to use its front.

The always-on connectivity is simply not there, except on Google-busses in Silicon Valley. Yes, people have wireless internet, but for social networks, not manipulate files. That would be costly, and, worse, often not available when you need it most (e.g. when you are stuck in a busy airport or train station, the Wifi often isn't very reliable)
Depends on a lot of factors, mostly you are correct, there is the G5 coming at 2019 which is expected to be universally adopted by 2025 which if things go as planned will provide 50~100MBs on average for each phone user in lower prices. This is neither here nor there, its just one of the technologies that are developing now which will make the always online possible, or more accurately wider accepted. WIFI might not be link that binds us after all.

Personally I hate the feeling of a web application the refresh of the page the expiration of the cookies and all that, as long as I can, I will always choose to use an application over a web app.

Me too, but most so called apps hardly feel better. Slow interactively, underutilization of large screens etc.
most apps are always better because they abide (admittedly by submission not by design) by the simple rules of user friendliness, do not hide abilities from the end user the menu is always present the menu items are always visible (disabled but visible) the toolbars do not change (much any way) the data are always changing but they do not flicker constantly they might have small (or not so small) delays between data retrieval but after that I can scroll filter print sort rearrange my data as I see fit with no flickering or change in the user interface. some feel a bit slaggish, mostly C# and java applications but I have seen lcl and delphi applications being slagish too, but overall they are more productive and smooth from anything web based. then again it might only be me.

Good judgement is the result of experience … Experience is the result of bad judgement.

OS : Windows 7 64 bit
Laz: Lazarus 1.4.4 FPC 2.6.4 i386-win32-win32/win64

BobS

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2017, 11:14:08 pm »

You can never rule out something strange and unexpected will happen (just talk to people in the late nineties that Apple will be the biggest IT corp ). But for now, as I say above, it will be mostly yet another tablet and convertible, and that even if if it doesn't fail miserably. (which is also an option)

If it is a minor success, it will be interesting what MS next steps are, if they can truly lift the UWP platform from tablet limitations into something more usable for a wider set of application types.

Only then it makes sense to talk about some of that crossing over to the wider PC market.

We are pretty much on the same page.  I would certainly be interested if FPC/Lazarus got a UWP target, but it's not something I'm hugely concerned about now, if the world decides to go that way, we will probably start to notice in a few years and if it happens then I'd imagine there would be enough interest that such a project might indeed get done.  FPC/Lazarus is a very impressive platform and given all the targets it already has I'd think one more to keep it modern/relevant would be very likely.

Tourniquet

  • New member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2017, 03:44:16 pm »
Heya,

but isn't it possible to build on this: https://github.com/tgerdes/DelphiWinRT  (http://www.thomgerdes.com/2011/12/writing-hello-world-for-winrt-in-delphi.html)?

That is basically a "Hello world" Windows 8 App writting in Delphi / XAML.

So if someone would enhance that / translate the new win10 headers it should very well be possible, shouldnt it?

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2017, 04:03:14 pm »
I haven't commuted for a couple of years now mostly because I work from home but if I remember correctly isn't the "commute index" a couple of generations behind the trends? ee you are going to see them in trains and buses and all that, after the trend generation becomes the new working force or is this only relevant here?

Maybe that is true, but that can only be said  in retrospect for the 0.5% of trends that actually survive that long and are here to stay.

Btw I forgot the convertibles. I do see these convertables regularly too. With convertables I mean fairly high end tablets with keyboards attached like surface and asus transformer, but they seem to be mostly used as lightweight laptops using office productivity apps (read Word,Excel), and not as tablets.

Quote
Depends on a lot of factors, mostly you are correct, there is the G5 coming at 2019 which is expected to be universally adopted by 2025 which if things go as planned will provide 50~100MBs on average for each phone user in lower prices. This is neither here nor there, its just one of the technologies that are developing now which will make the always online possible, or more accurately wider accepted. WIFI might not be link that binds us after all.

We'll see, but with the new wind blowing from the US about net neutrality, I wouldn't be surprised that we go back to the walled garden which means you can only access carrier supported streaming services at that bandwidth.

Quote
most apps are always better because they abide (admittedly by submission not by design) by the simple rules of user friendliness, do not hide abilities from the end user the menu is always present the menu items are always visible (disabled but visible) the toolbars do not change (much any way) the data are always changing but they do not flicker constantly they might have small (or not so small) delays between data retrieval but after that I can scroll filter print sort rearrange my data as I see fit with no flickering or change in the user interface.

That is not the impression that I get. Yes they are pretty and simple, but usually so are their abilities. They excel in doing a few of the simplest tasks, and are horribly limited in their storage options. (e.g. often only communicate with one webservice).

Quote
some feel a bit slaggish, mostly C# and java applications but I have seen lcl and delphi applications being slagish too, but overall they are more productive and smooth from anything web based. then again it might only be me.

I wasn't comparing with webbased. I don't consider webbased exactly the pinacle of UI, if only because it under utilize any standard for keyboard navigation

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2017, 04:06:32 pm »
Heya,

but isn't it possible to build on this: https://github.com/tgerdes/DelphiWinRT  (http://www.thomgerdes.com/2011/12/writing-hello-world-for-winrt-in-delphi.html)?

That is basically a "Hello world" Windows 8 App writting in Delphi / XAML.

So if someone would enhance that / translate the new win10 headers it should very well be possible, shouldnt it?

Is it now? Afaik the system unit will still link to win32 user32.dll and kernel32.dll, something which is not allowed for the store (but maybe allowed for sideloading). The documentation with that sourcecode is a bit thin though, so it is all guesswork

Thaddy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4638
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2017, 04:25:59 pm »
@Marco
The only thing I know is that requirements have been much relaxed for pure intel based executables.
There were way too many complaints. And - given the company - extremely little activity and content by third parties.
I never tried it though. Such things do not belong to my interest - or patience span.
"Logically, no number of positive outcomes at the level of experimental testing can confirm a scientific theory, but a single counterexample is logically decisive."

Tourniquet

  • New member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2017, 04:47:48 pm »
I'm pretty sure you can also put it in the store. Because you still import things from user32 and kernel32 the app will need more privileges than "normal" uwp but I guess that's fine.

The whole point of the Desktop Converter / Centennial Bridge is to put win32 apps in the store and make them more UWP over time. You can actually have a package with both in it: win32 and uwp.

The biggest "problem" would be that it probably won't run on Windows Phones / XBOX. But I guess it would be still a huge progress to be able to create UWP apps with pascal / lazarus.

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5825
Re: Windows 10 applications
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2017, 04:50:33 pm »
I'm pretty sure you can also put it in the store. Because you still import things from user32 and kernel32 the app will need more privileges than "normal" uwp but I guess that's fine.

The whole point of the Desktop Converter / Centennial Bridge is to put win32 apps in the store and make them more UWP over time. You can actually have a package with both in it: win32 and uwp.

(also to thaddy)
I do know centennial, but this codebase is from win8.x times(and thus predates centennial to my knowledge) and pretends to be winrt, while afaik it is not.

And to be frank, at the moment wrapping win32 apps in store for desktop use alone is not very interesting IMHO.

But if you do, please document it.

 

Recent

Get Lazarus at SourceForge.net. Fast, secure and Free Open Source software downloads Open Hub project report for Lazarus