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Author Topic: Informing the European Commission on Apple's monopoly abuse  (Read 28935 times)

bee

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Re: Informing the European Commission on Apple's monopoly abuse
« Reply #75 on: September 14, 2017, 10:44:17 am »
A song called "Excitable Boy" by Zevon is playing in the background, like an ear worm, is recommended for everyone else while reading this post. During the previous decade I witnessed a lot of PR work done for dictators literally massacring their people. Business is business, you know.
Yeah, whatever. We're talking about software business and platforms, not politics. You don't seem to know what you're talking about. :)

I would like to congratulate you for your PR work, here, for Apple. Awesome! I really enjoyed reading it. I just happened to have a little issue: You mentioned western countries and laws, but Apple products are manufactured in China - A place where people use strange glyphs like 秩 - am I right? I am not sure if the western term is "cheap labor" or "slave labor", or maybe a more positive term?
Almost everything is made and manufactured in China these days. I suspect almost all electronic things in your house are also made or manufactured in China. Do you realize that?

Do you think Apple, and similar giants, care about Chinese workers, for instance? What about you, do you care about little Suzie, or is it normalized?
Do you? What have you done about it? What do you do to Apple, Google, Microsoft, Samsung, Lenovo, LG, HTC, and all electronic makers out there? Not being an Apple user doesn't make you any better or more noble or superior over Apple users, or vice versa.

Apple's market share is never more than 20% globally (and even much less in computer category). If you really care about such issues, you should address your concern and criticism to the 80% of it. Do you?

If there is no law against it, then it must be OK.
In term of legal action, sure it is. Unless you wanna be a dictator who don't respect the law and making your own laws then force them to everyone in the world (with "gun"). Do you? :)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:45:55 am by bee »
-Bee-

A long time pascal lover.

kupferstecher

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Re: Informing the European Commission on Apple's monopoly abuse
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2017, 08:53:40 pm »
What? If I'm Apple, why wouid I let someone else to sign security certificate for my system? It's ridiculous.
In order not to offend laws.

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You don't use nor need Apple products. And Apple with all of the users also don't seem to need your apps too. So, why bother with this discusssion at all? Why don't you just use whatever system you prefer and make some peace with it? :)
Why are you so narrow minded? An end-user has the choice which system he wants to use, but a developer is bound to the system chosen by the end-users. One shouldn't have to change profession, because of the stupidity of end-users.

The app-markets are obviously against market laws in europe. But there are several reasons why they still can do it.
1. They are an american company.
2. There are the security aspects
3. The market thing was fading in, in the beginning it was just small enough so that it wasn't neccessary to be controlled
4. They have a huge crowd of supporters. Take away Apple/Google and there will be a bloody revolution.

bee

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Re: Informing the European Commission on Apple's monopoly abuse
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2017, 03:28:17 am »
In order not to offend laws.
How come an effort to secure a system and protect the users is offending the laws? What laws? I think it's the other way around, it's defending the laws. Because every user has the right to be in secure and convenience ecosystem. It's a choice for us too.

Why are you so narrow minded?
What? I thought the one who never use Apple products nor get into Apple's walled garden ecosystem nor understand Apple's business model, yet accusing Apple with FUDs is the narrow minded one. I'm not asking you or anyone in this group to use nor avoid Apple products. Just use whatever products you prefer, as long as the law allows it. I respect whatever systems/products everybody choose.

An end-user has the choice which system he wants to use, but a developer is bound to the system chosen by the end-users.
Exactly! Apple products is just one option over many others that any end users can choose. If you think Apple products suit you, then use it. If not, leave it. As simple as that.

And as a developer, we should respect any systems picked by our users, whether we like the system or not. If we really don't want to support the system, then simply don't make any apps for the system and ask the users to find other solutions for their system. It's a so simple logic. How can some people seem so hard to grasp it?

Just FYI, I don't like Windows. It's just my personal preference, for many subjective reasons. But I do make apps for Windows. In fact, most of my users are using Windows. So, I have to let my personal preference go away, because as a developer I have an obligation to serve my users whatever the system they're on.

The app-markets are obviously against market laws in europe. But there are several reasons why they still can do it.
If you really sure app store is against the law, then show them to the police and your government. If they don't listen to you and let a law-breaking system keeps running, then your government is also part of the problem. Have you done that?

1. They are an american company.
Then your police and government are weak against american. Apple/Google isn't even a state company. :)

2. There are the security aspects
So the security aspect is against the law?  %)

3. The market thing was fading in, in the beginning it was just small enough so that it wasn't neccessary to be controlled
It has been in control since the beginning, by the author of each system. Play Store is controlled by Google, App Store is controlled by Apple, etc. And each of the authors are controlled by the government and the laws.

4. They have a huge crowd of supporters. Take away Apple/Google and there will be a bloody revolution.
What? So, now people love and obey Apple/Google more than their own laws and government? Is it now Apple/Google above the law? Wow?! :D
-Bee-

A long time pascal lover.

kupferstecher

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Re: Informing the European Commission on Apple's monopoly abuse
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2017, 04:15:26 pm »
How come an effort to secure a system and protect the users is offending the laws?
Thats what they use as argument. If you consider this as actual reason for the app-jailing, then they couldn't charge money from the sellings, charges would be limited to their actual efforts for checking the security of the provided app. Also they are not allowed to turn down any unpleasant app (unless it conflicts with any laws, as trojans etc. do).

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What laws?
It's not that easy to outline a certain article. It's within the monopoly abuse, but the EU-article (EU Art.81) that I know only holds for abuses which "may affect trade between Member States" (developers in the complete EU have the same bad conditions). Nevertheless national laws do forbid monopoly abuse also if it doesn't affect other member states of the EU. For example the German GWB §19 Art2/2. It roughly says: An abuse exists if a market-dominating company [...] requests charges or trading conditions, which defer from those which are considered to result under normal competition.
As OP stated, he wouldn't use the market, if it wasn't dictated by Apple.

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I think it's the other way around, it's defending the laws. Because every user has the right to be in secure and convenience ecosystem.
The opposit of braking the law is obaying it and not defending it. A company is not allowed to break a law in order to defend another one (only if a third law allows to do so).


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[...] understand Apple's business model [...]
Here we go. You're right, security comes second behind business. But sorry for taking your quote out of context.
Of course its valid to do business, but one is not allowed to do that by restricting the freedom of market.

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I respect whatever systems/products everybody choose.
So do I. But:
[...] a developer is bound to the system chosen by the end-users.

If we really don't want to support the system, then simply don't make any apps for the system and ask the users to find other solutions for their system. It's a so simple logic.
The solution, i.e. app, is done anyways. The question is just who is the one to do it. It's about market shares. For OP it may not be valuable any more if he has to dispense 30% of "protection money". But someone else will still do it. The quality may get worse, the retail price may get higher or the profit of the developer just drops. The first two possibilities are direct disadvantages to the end-user. Does apple write it on the box when selling the system that they collect 30% tax for each sold app? I doubt so. The 30% I just read in the thread, may be wrong, it actually sounds really absurd to me...

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Just FYI, I don't like Windows.
This is not about like or dislike. OP stated that he even loves Mac.

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If you really sure app store is against the law, then show them to the police and your government.
I don't have the financial background to sue a megacompany like apple.

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If they don't listen to you and let a law-breaking system keeps running, then your government is also part of the problem.
In which kind of super democratic paradise do you life?

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So, now people love and obey Apple/Google more than their own laws and government? Is it now Apple/Google above the law? Wow?! :D
Yes. Not above all laws, though. Whatsapp/Facebook is obviously violating privacy laws, but that'd be another topic  :)

 

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